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Old 09-09-2013, 03:39 PM   #1
Glynn
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Default hopeless at water profiling

my beers are maltier than i want them to be. can some one tell me how to fix it.
I'v tried every calulater out there and i'm just to stupid to figure it out

ca = 35
mg = 12
na = 68
so4 = 45
cl = 113
hco3 = 79


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Old 09-09-2013, 05:09 PM   #2
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The title of your post hints that you think it is water that controls whether beer is malty or not. It isn't. It's malt. It is true that the chloride ion in the water (of which you have quite a bit) smooths, sweetens, mellows, rounds the beer and increases mouthfeel (all things one might associate with malty flavors/qualities) and sulfate tends to render bitterness harsh, rough, assertive and dry (things one might associate with hops) but if the malty flavors aren't there to be enhanced, they won't be.

If you want beers that are not malty then use small quantities of malt and use mostly base malts that is, avoid the highly flavorful colored malts. Mash at a low saccharification temperature (144 F or thereabouts) in order to produce a highly fermentable wort.

Brew with neutral water i.e. RO water with about half a tsp of calcium chloride in each 5 gallons. When the beer is finished taste it and taste it again with various amounts of calcium chloride and/or calcium sulfate added in the glass. This will show you what chloride and sulfate ions do to beer flavors. Tweak future recipes according to what these tastings indicate to you.


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Old 09-09-2013, 06:46 PM   #3
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That water does lend itself toward promoting the perceptions of maltiness. But as AJ mentions, it can't create maltiness, the malt content of the beer does. With that said, I recommend diluting that tap water by at least half with a goal of reducing the chloride content.

I suppose you have tried adding gypsum to your beers and you haven't been pleased with the result? The high chloride in conjunction with elevated sulfate could be expected to produce 'minerally' flavor in the finished beer. That may work in some styles, but overwhelm others. Reducing the chloride is therefore an appropriate goal and that can provide the 'room' in the water profile to allow a dryer finish via an appropriate addition of sulfate. That will help reduce the perception of maltiness that you lament.

Another potential problem is the bicarbonate content. If you haven't been neutralizing that content with acid addition, its possible that the mash and wort pH have been a little high. I find that bringing mash pH down into the 5.2 to 5.6 range will improve the fermentability and attenuation of a wort.

As AJ said, you may also want to reduce the mashing temperature if you have been mashing in the high 150F range previously. I now typically mash in the low 150F range and sometimes include an initial mash step in the mid 140F range to improve wort fermentability.

Good luck with it!
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:32 PM   #4
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I know the water doesn't add maltiness. Its the percieved maltiness I'm try to reduce. I brew apa and ipa mostly and want a more balanced water profile without adding a ton of chemicals to it and fortifying it with 50%+ ro/distilled water. I could see adding 20 to 25% ro/distilled. swmbo doesnt like my hobby so spending money on it just givers here a reason to $#%&* at me.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:42 PM   #5
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Beersmith has a water tool that will calculate your additions. Have you tried that?
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glynn View Post
I know the water doesn't add maltiness. Its the percieved maltiness I'm try to reduce. I brew apa and ipa mostly and want a more balanced water profile without adding a ton of chemicals to it and fortifying it with 50%+ ro/distilled water. I could see adding 20 to 25% ro/distilled. swmbo doesnt like my hobby so spending money on it just givers here a reason to $#%&* at me.
Well, if you are willing to dilute your water 25% with RO water, that would reduce your chloride 25% so that would really help alot.

Our "water machine" at the grocery store was $1.58 for 5 gallons of RO water.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:40 PM   #7
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With 113 mg/L chloride you are going to get lots of chloride effect. There is nothing you can add to this water to reduce that except low ion water i.e. you will either have to 'fortify' it with RO or try to deal with the emphasized malt characteristics through manipulation of the malt(s) themselves. You can add sulfate to the point where you are distracted from the malt I suppose but that isn't really a satisfactory solution. It is commonly supposed that sulfate and chloride cancel one another but it isn't really true.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
Well, if you are willing to dilute your water 25% with RO water, that would reduce your chloride 25% so that would really help alot.

Our "water machine" at the grocery store was $1.58 for 5 gallons of RO water.
I am but the main problem for me is what is the correct action for me to take. When it come to what I am supposed to add to achieve a balanced profile there are to many options on what to add. what I am looking for is a water recipe that will give me a wide umbrella for all of my lighter brews brews. (apa, ipas iipa's) I am not really concerned with ambers, red's and above because i feel my water profile more closely matched to thos styles. this was the best i could come up with. http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-ch...or/?id=S3M81PG
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glynn View Post
I am but the main problem for me is what is the correct action for me to take. When it come to what I am supposed to add to achieve a balanced profile there are to many options on what to add. what I am looking for is a water recipe that will give me a wide umbrella for all of my lighter brews brews. (apa, ipas iipa's) I am not really concerned with ambers, red's and above because i feel my water profile more closely matched to thos styles. this was the best i could come up with. http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-ch...or/?id=S3M81PG
Well, you've got too much chloride. The only way to fix it is to dilute it.

If you dilute the water 50% with RO water, you will have a perfect slate. You can then add some gypsum as needed. If you dilute 25%, you still have too much chloride but it'd be better than the amount you have now.

Not reducing the chloride when that would fix the problem is like trying to add spices to spaghetti sauce to fix it when it was oversalted. It might not be terrible, but it won't fix the problem.

Your water isn't bad, except that it's too high in chloride. Diluting with RO or distilled water would also reduce the sodium (which is also high).

Edit- I noticed that in your additions you have added some calcium chloride. Don't do that! It's already too high.


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