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Old 08-28-2013, 01:56 AM   #1
itsratso
 
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i am trying to copy some recipes from JZ into beersmith. attached is a file for the dortmunder recipe. i seem to be getting a different OG (5 points higher?) than i should be getting. the recipe states the batch size (into fermenter) is 5.5 gallons, the efficiency is 70% and the mash temp and time and boil times are correct. in this recipe i am supposed to have an OG of 1.055 and i am getting 1.060. i have gotten this for several JZ recipes i have copied tonight, but other times his recipe numbers are pretty spot on. also, my other numbers for this recipe seem to add up, only the OG is off (??).

recipe:
OG: 1.055
FG: 1.013
pre-boil gravity: 1.047

BS numbers:
OG: 1.060
FG (est): 1.012
pre-boil grav (est): 1.046
File Type: bsmx dortmunder.bsmx (19.0 KB, 46 views)

 
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:07 AM   #2
ClayMugs
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I'm a constant listener to JZ on the BN. He belive he alwalys states that they are 6 gallon batches, only 5 1/2 go into the fermentor, he leaves 1/2 gallon behined in the brew pot. This have have something to do with your calculations. If you change your batch size to 6 gallons does it fix you OG?

 
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Old 08-28-2013, 03:40 AM   #3
itsratso
 
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actually that's a good idea. i copied his setup from one of the beerdujour beersmith files of his so i have his exact setup (if it didn't change of course). let me play with this and see if it's closer.

 
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:04 AM   #4
itsratso
 
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okay, i've played with it. and it still doesn't match up. i can get it close and on some recipes it's closer. others it's farther away. is this normal? i would think if i put in the same amounts as the recipe with the same efficiencies i would get the same numbers out. is that wrong? and how far off should i allow if it's okay for some variance?

btw: JZ states it's 5.5 gallons into the fermentor as you said. so the correct batch size should be 5.5 gallons.

 
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:31 AM   #5
ClayMugs
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If you have his book, BCS, check out page 41. His recipes are designed to leave 6 gallons in the kettle at the end of the boil. This is where he is taking his OG reading from. Even though your are fermenting a batch of only 5 1/2 g the OG comes from the 6 gallons.

I downloaded your recipe into BS2 and changed the batch size to 6 and the OG reads 1055. If your IBUs are a little off it may just be that BS2 is set with a different calculation for IBUs than he used. You can change this if it bothers you. I can't recall which formula he uses. But if you make the 1.7 oz hop addition a first wort you get pretty close.

On a separate not, on the BN radio-casts he says he likes to use the metric system, for everything but the temps. If you switch over to grams the IBU numbers stay the same but the hop oz decrease by a hundreth per 1/2 oz. 14 g is .49 oz.

Oh the fun of US/imperial system.

One other thing to think on. He say earlier that the recipes were for extract brewing, So I wonder the numbers come off of the extract brew. I know when you develop recipes and switch between AG and Extract sometime the numbers change.

Either way follow Charlie P's advice.

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Old 08-28-2013, 06:35 AM   #6
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gotcha, thanx for the clarification!

 
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:01 PM   #7
cwi
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Your issue is related to the 'trub loss' field and BS using (stupidly) 'to the fermenter' for efficiency. Setting 'trub loss' to '0' (always), and using batch size as what is 'in the kettle' helps, but only slightly; especially if you batch sparge or BIAB.

I have been using some Aussie spreadsheet based software as a workaround. It isn't very user friendly, but at least the numbers are good.

 
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:24 PM   #8
mattd2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwi View Post
Your issue is related to the 'trub loss' field and BS using (stupidly) 'to the fermenter' for efficiency. Setting 'trub loss' to '0' (always), and using batch size as what is 'in the kettle' helps, but only slightly; especially if you batch sparge or BIAB.

I have been using some Aussie spreadsheet based software as a workaround. It isn't very user friendly, but at least the numbers are good.
I don't think using the volume into the fermeter for total efficiency is black and white stupid, but not making it clear is - as is the recipe not making it clear where the gravity is taken. For calculating how awesome I am I will use fermenter volume x fermenter gravity to work out my overall efficency, i.e. I had this much grain and i manage to get this much sugar out of it. But in developing a recipe I starting know that mash efficency (preboil volume/gravity) is most important so you can adjust the recipe early on.

Long story short as you kind of mentioned - know what the software wants you to tell it and adjust for what you want to know

 
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:38 PM   #9
ODI3
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JZ uses Tinseth method for hops.
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My 15 gal EBIAB Brewing Rig:
Http://www.londonbrewers.ca/blog

 
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:04 AM   #10
cwi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattd2 View Post
I don't think using the volume into the fermeter for total efficiency is black and white stupid,
(Re)Defining Brew House Eff as 'to the fermenter' is beyond stupid, in any color. How are you supposed to share recipes? (as evidenced by this very thread). How are you supposed to account for different trub levels based on the hop bill? Tying the volume in the fermenter to brewside efficiency makes absolutely no sense. The only reason for any efficiency calcs post-kettle is for penny-pinching accountants. Getting high efficiency does not make better beer, and can actually cause flavor problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattd2 View Post
But in developing a recipe I starting know that mash efficency (preboil volume/gravity) is most important so you can adjust the recipe early on.
Mash Efficiency is 2 steps better than what BS uses. Kettle/Brewhouse Eff = Mash Eff X Lauter Eff. That is how it is supposed to be defined. Knowing all of them makes tracking, while brewing and post-brew, easier. Using Kettle Eff, at a minimum, is much better than 'to the fermentor'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattd2 View Post
Long story short as you kind of mentioned - know what the software wants you to tell it and adjust for what you want to know
That makes no sense. If there is a known defect, the software should be fixed, and BS is very obviously broken. Using fermentor centric efficiency provides no benefit to brewing process- chest beating about post-kettle efficiency aside.

 
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