Primary to secondary question

So I have a have a nut brown ale in the primary and has been there 3 days. I just found out in three days I will need to take a 12 day trip. I have used nottingham yeast pitched after re-hydrating, but no starter. I would like the ale to get the conditioning benefit of being on the trub, but will three weeks be too long in the primary, or would I be better off racking to secondary with only 6 days in the primary? I turn to the collective wisdom of HBF for guidance.
I am including the recipe for no particular reason.
8# Golden Promise
2# Roasted Golden Promise (3 weeks rest in paper bag after roasting)
1# Crystal malt (15L) added last 20 min. of mash
0.5# Chocolate malt (350 L)
0.5# aciduated malt (to lower pH of mash)
1oz. East Kent Golding (EKG) (60 min.)
0.25 oz. EKG (30 min)
0.25 oz. EKG (15 min)
0.5 oz. Mittlefrue (0 min)
1 packet Nottingham rehydrated in 1 cup 80 degree boiled water.
1/2 tsp. yeast nutrient (10 min of boil)
1 tsp Irish moss (10 min of boil)
OG 1.053

Well, the benefit of being left on the trub is done in full in about 24-36 hours after fermentation ends. But that is the key- "after fermentation ends". Many people don't use a secondary at all (more of a bright tank, or clearing vessel) for many beers, so you could consider that moving it may not be something that some of us would even do in other circumstances.

If it was my beer, I"d keep it cool (nottingham tastes icky if it gets over 70 degrees or so) and leave it be and bottle it when I got home.

Yooper said:

Well, the benefit of being left on the trub is done in full in about 24-36 hours after fermentation ends. But that is the key- "after fermentation ends". Many people don't use a secondary at all (more of a bright tank, or clearing vessel) for many beers, so you could consider that moving it may not be something that some of us would even do in other circumstances.

If it was my beer, I"d keep it cool (nottingham tastes icky if it gets over 70 degrees or so) and leave it be and bottle it when I got home.

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+1. I leave pretty much all of my beers in the primary for at least 3 weeks. So if it were me, there wouldn't even be a problem.

I rack all my beers after the first week into a secondary. Some may go two weeks though. I find that the fermentation on many continue as the yeast floculates, which still leaves some on the bottom. I don't like leaving a beer on a big yeast cake full of hop gunk for too long. I guess it is personal preference.

loucurr said:

I rack all my beers after the first week into a secondary. Some may go two weeks though. I find that the fermentation on many continue as the yeast floculates, which still leaves some on the bottom. I don't like leaving a beer on a big yeast cake full of hop gunk for too long. I guess it is personal preference.

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This is a personal preference and was at one time common practice. It is more commonly advised these days to be sure you have been at final gravity for a few days before transferring. I rarely use a secondary and I would stack my beers up against most homebrews.

I never use a secondary fermentor. I typically do 2-week or 3-week fermentation's in the primary with no issues. It's better to leave it on the yeast until you're sure it's done fermenting. Just don't leave it on there for more than 4-5 weeks preferably.

BanginBanjo said:

I never use a secondary fermentor. I typically do 2-week or 3-week fermentation's in the primary with no issues. It's better to leave it on the yeast until you're sure it's done fermenting. Just don't leave it on there for more than 4-5 weeks preferably.

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Why not? I've left a brown ale in the primary for 9 weeks and it came out very good. I've heard from another brewer who left an ale in the primary for 8 months without any problems.

Autolysis, which can and will occur (eventually) when beer continues to sit on the yeast cake. It will cause severe off-flavors from the beer sitting on the dead yeast cells for an extended period of time.

I've never had it happen to me before, and sometimes you can let beer sit on the yeast for months and it will be fine, but I've heard it happen in as little as 5 weeks. A big factor depends on the health of the yeast you use as well as how well the wort was prepared.

If you make a suitable yeast starter from healthy yeast and oxygenate your wort prior to pitching, it shouldn't be an issue unless it's an extremely long period of time, but not everyone does those things.

loucurr said:

I rack all my beers after the first week into a secondary. Some may go two weeks though. I find that the fermentation on many continue as the yeast floculates, which still leaves some on the bottom. I don't like leaving a beer on a big yeast cake full of hop gunk for too long. I guess it is personal preference.

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This used to be my practice too. It was my practice for many years. After some research and testing I've settled on the simple practice of leaving in primary for three weeks and then into kegs. I even do this with things I age, because I just let it age in the keg. I just put a Wee Heavy in the kegerator that was aged for four months in the keg. For things I don't age, I usually cold crash and put straight into the kegerator and let them condition on gas for three weeks before drinking--on the occasion that I can wait that long. The only exception to this is when I am adding Brett or other things post fermentation. Those things I still rack into secondary, but they are the only things that get a true secondary.

BanginBanjo said:

Autolysis, which can and will occur (eventually) when beer continues to sit on the yeast cake. It will cause severe off-flavors from the beer sitting on the dead yeast cells for an extended period of time.

I've never had it happen to me before, and sometimes you can let beer sit on the yeast for months and it will be fine, but I've heard it happen in as little as 5 weeks. A big factor depends on the health of the yeast you use as well as how well the wort was prepared.

If you make a suitable yeast starter from healthy yeast and oxygenate your wort prior to pitching, it shouldn't be an issue unless it's an extremely long period of time, but not everyone does those things.

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Autolysis is not really a concern on the homebrewing scale. It happens in commercial breweries with huge fermenters that put a lot of pressure on yeast cakes which can cause the yeast to die fairly quickly. Early homebrewers read about autolysis in brewing books that were designed for commercial brewers and thus the myth of needing to quickly transfer to a secondary when homebrewing was born. I heard John Palmer in a podcast saying how he perpetuated the myth in his early editions of How To Brew but that he has tried to ammend it since then.

Unless you have ridiculously unhealthy yeast I seriously doubt you will get any autolysis in only 5 weeks. It would take more like 5 months. The yeast cake at the bottom of your fermenter is not dead yeast. It's mostly dormant yeast.

peterj said:

The yeast cake at the bottom of your fermenter is not dead yeast. It's mostly dormant yeast.

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hmmm . . . makes you wonder why Mr Malty says 25% the yeast in a pack die after a four weeks, half after eight weeks. Can't have it both ways.




(personally not a fan of either Mr Malty or the extended primary)

AnOldUR said:

hmmm . . . makes you wonder why Mr Malty says 25% the yeast in a pack die after a four weeks, half after eight weeks. Can't have it both ways.




(personally not a fan of either Mr Malty or the extended primary)

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Yeast in a yeast pack is totally different than in a yeast cake. They're at a different phase in their life cycle, deprived of nutrients and food to consume, waiting to be pitched into wort. I'm not advocating leaving beer in the primary for months, there's not really any benefit in doing that. I'm just saying autolysis will not happen in 5 weeks. I think most beers can be bottled/kegged after 3 weeks. And if it's a beer that needs to be aged for a couple months, you should do about 3 weeks in the primary then go to a secondary for aging.

peterj said:

Autolysis is not really a concern on the homebrewing scale. It happens in commercial breweries with huge fermenters that put a lot of pressure on yeast cakes which can cause the yeast to die fairly quickly. Early homebrewers read about autolysis in brewing books that were designed for commercial brewers and thus the myth of needing to quickly transfer to a secondary when homebrewing was born. I heard John Palmer in a podcast saying how he perpetuated the myth in his early editions of How To Brew but that he has tried to ammend it since then.

Unless you have ridiculously unhealthy yeast I seriously doubt you will get any autolysis in only 5 weeks. It would take more like 5 months. The yeast cake at the bottom of your fermenter is not dead yeast. It's mostly dormant yeast.

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I've tasted some autolyzed beers. Not a lot, but some. So it does occur at the homebrew level. It may take a while, and I think it's more likely to happen at warmer temperatures, but it's possible.

I agree that in 5 weeks it won't be likely- but if the temperature is warm and the yeast is unhealthy it could be possible.

Yooper said:

I've tasted some autolyzed beers. Not a lot, but some. So it does occur at the homebrew level. It may take a while, and I think it's more likely to happen at warmer temperatures, but it's possible.

I agree that in 5 weeks it won't be likely- but if the temperature is warm and the yeast is unhealthy it could be possible.

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Right, I agree it can definitely occur. It's just not something that the average homebrewer needs to be overly concerned about. It's good to be aware that it can happen, it's just not incredibly likely.

I feel like it gets hyped up too much, especially to new brewers.

AnOldUR said:

hmmm . . . makes you wonder why Mr Malty says 25% the yeast in a pack die after a four weeks, half after eight weeks. Can't have it both ways.




(personally not a fan of either Mr Malty or the extended primary)

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Yeast dying and autolysis are related but not the same thing. The yeast have to die first, then they may or may not autolyze. Most of the time autolysis is related to the heat and the yeast packed tightly together like they would be in a conical. It usually takes quite a quantity of yeast to generate the heat needed.

RM-MN said:

Yeast dying and autolysis are related but not the same thing.

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I mentioned dying yeast when quoting peterj statement that the yeast cake at the bottom of your fermenter is not dead yeast. I agree that rupturing of the cell wall in autolysis is what causes off-flavors, not dead or unviable yeast. It's only an early stage of what will occur if conditions are right.

What I was getting at is that if Mr Malty claims that a one month old vial of yeast kept in a refrigerator loses 25% of its viability, than the time spent at fermentation temperature after the yeast has gone through all its phases will cause even more yeast to die. Since the fermentation process takes less than a week in an average size and properly brewed beer, a three to four week primary fermentation is not going to help your beer or the health of the yeast in your fermentor.

peterj said:

Yeast in a yeast pack is totally different than in a yeast cake. They're at a different phase in their life cycle, deprived of nutrients and food to consume, waiting to be pitched into wort.

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What phase other than dormant are the viable yeast in a vial or pack and the viable yeast at the bottom of a fermenter? Dormant yeast has little need for either food or nutrients. A healthy fermentation is nothing more than a large starter as far as the yeast are concerned.

I don't rack to a secondary...at least haven't yet. Nowhere near an expert but have had good success with just primary. If for no other reason, I worry about increased chance of infection by transferring.

Chris

AnOldUR said:

I mentioned dying yeast when quoting peterj statement that the yeast cake at the bottom of your fermenter is not dead yeast. I agree that rupturing of the cell wall in autolysis is what causes off-flavors, not dead or unviable yeast. It's only an early stage of what will occur if conditions are right.

What I was getting at is that if Mr Malty claims that a one month old vial of yeast kept in a refrigerator loses 25% of its viability, than the time spent at fermentation temperature after the yeast has gone through all its phases will cause even more yeast to die. Since the fermentation process takes less than a week in an average size and properly brewed beer, a three to four week primary fermentation is not going to help your beer or the health of the yeast in your fermentor.

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That's why I said it's mostly dormant yeast. I didn't say none of it was dead. And unviable and dead are not the same thing. Unviable can be dead but it can also be yeast that are weak and will die if they are introduced to a shocking environment that is very different from what they are used to (like wort). But, even if 25% are dead after 30 days that means 75% are alive and dormant. However, all of the yeast in a vial or pack start in the dormant phase, but not all yeast are in the same phase at the same time in beer. I will say a lot of the yeast will go dormant after a week or so, but there are still a lot that are not dormant and continue to work on the beer in the conditioning phase by consuming byproducts like acetaldehyde and diacetyl and more complex sugars. And yeast still do things in the dormant phase like absorb oxygen in the beer which prevents oxidation and staling. So if I'm packaging after 2-3 weeks in the primary, I really don't think there will be that much dead yeast in the yeast cake. And I don't think whatever minority percentage of the yeast that is dead will have a detrimental effect on my beer, and definitely not a big enough effect to outweigh the benefits of leaving it on the cake for an extra week or 2 to condition.

AnOldUR said:

What phase other than dormant are the viable yeast in a vial or pack and the viable yeast at the bottom of a fermenter? Dormant yeast has little need for either food or nutrients. A healthy fermentation is nothing more than a large starter as far as the yeast are concerned.

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I guess I mispoke here. My bad. They are in the dormant phase, but I still wouldn't say it's exactly the same as yeast in the fermenter. The conditions are vastly different in a pack or vial where the yeast is grown in a laboratory, concentrated, and packaged compared to yeast that is in fermenting beer.