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Old 05-27-2013, 08:59 PM   #1
TLProulx
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Default Saison using wine yeast

I wasn't really a fan of saison beer until I tasted the Brasserie Charlevoix Dominus Vobiscum Saison.

What I really liked in this beer is it's a refreshing beer with fruit aroma and flavor and without any spice.

So this weekend, I read the book Farmhouses Ales (...) by Phil Markowski.
The section about the Dupont yeast (WLP565) strain caught my attention when he said that it is believed that the strain has evolved from a wine strain. This yeast is supposed to produce fruity aroma and flavor.

So could I use a white or red wine yeast know for hyper fruity flavor/aroma?
Anyone has tried it?

Thanks


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Old 06-07-2013, 08:27 PM   #2
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Most wine strains are incapable of fermenting maltotriose and have difficulty with maltose. You would end up with a very sweet beer.

There are ways to deal with this though. I recommended listening to an episode if The Brewing Network's Sunday Session from 11/23/08. The interviewed Shea Comfort. He is a professional wine consultant and a homebrewer. They had a long discussion on using wine yeast in beer as well as using oak in beer. Great show.


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Old 06-07-2013, 09:10 PM   #3
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Well, now I have another 4 hours of BN to listen to. Thanks Danny lol
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Old 06-08-2013, 04:37 AM   #4
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Here's the short version: the strain may have evolved from a wine yeast strain, but that means it's very different from the wine-fermenter it used to be. If you pitch a modern wine yeast, it hasn't evolved to be happy in beer, so it's going to give you poor results. Now, if you cultured some yeast from that beer, you could use THAT to ferment your beer no problem.
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Old 06-08-2013, 12:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Here's the short version: the strain may have evolved from a wine yeast strain, but that means it's very different from the wine-fermenter it used to be.
I agree. Saisons are a lot about the yeast, so just pick an established Saison yeast and use that.

A few good ones.

3711. a real beast that will always finish low with no problem
3724. Nice, more spice but need heat to finish up. A little more difficult to use.
Belle Saison..More like 3711. Finishes low. Works in a wide temp range. A little more spice and a little less citrus flavor than 3711.
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Old 06-08-2013, 03:03 PM   #6
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I know Anchorage Brewing uses a wine yeast in their Love Buzz saison for bottle conditioning. I think his process is typical saison strain for primary, secondary in wine barrels with a brett strain, and then bottle with wine yeast. It is a very interesting beer.

I think using a wine yeast for any primary fermentation would not work out well. I could see using a combination of 3724 for primary and a wine strain for secondary to dry it out. Taking it that low with wine yeast would require you hop very conservatively.
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Old 06-09-2013, 07:50 AM   #7
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I know Anchorage Brewing uses a wine yeast in their Love Buzz saison for bottle conditioning. I think his process is typical saison strain for primary, secondary in wine barrels with a brett strain, and then bottle with wine yeast. It is a very interesting beer.

I think using a wine yeast for any primary fermentation would not work out well. I could see using a combination of 3724 for primary and a wine strain for secondary to dry it out. Taking it that low with wine yeast would require you hop very conservatively.
Unless your fermentation stalled, wine yeast won't dry a beer out. It's incapable of fermenting maltotriose, generally. 3724 will ferment far more sugars than a wine yeast (again, unless it's stalled). You can use wine yeast when bottling as it will eat the sugars you added, but it's not going to eat more malt sugars than the beer yeast already has.

BTW, Love Buzz is awesome. Anchorage Brewing was at Copenhagen Beer Celebration, which I attended, and they had a lot of really, really nice beers. Lots of tasty Brett.

Dannypo listed a very good episode of the Session to listen to. The guy on that show is enthusiastic and full of great information.

After listening to that episode, I decided to go ahead and try a wine yeast. I brewed a Belgian IPA yesterday and pitched WLP550 and Lalvin 71B. Curious to see what kind of fruit flavors the wine yeast adds. 71B is the only yeast he lists on that show that he says is non competitive with beer yeast. From what I remember from listening to it, there are 2 things to look for in wine yeast. First, "phenol off flavor". If the yeast tests negative for phenol off flavor then it can produce flavors that might be good in a beer. He lists a number of yeasts that are negative for phenol off flavor. Then, there's the competitive factor. All of the yeasts he lists except 71B are "killer" yeasts. He says that killer yeasts produce a protein that will kill beer yeast, stop it dead in its tracks within 12 hours.

So, of the yeasts he mentions, 71B is the only one that go straight into the fermenter in conjunction with a beer yeast without killing the beer yeast.

For the other yeasts, he recommends blending. He recommends pulling 1/3 of your wort when you chill and put that into a separate fermenter with the wine yeast, then blend the beers after primary, say at bottling. It will add more malt sugars back into the beer, more mouthfeel and sweetness, so you need to plan your recipe accordingly.

He also said some German commercial brewers have been experimenting with using 1/3 71B with 2/3 weissbier yeast for wheat beers.

I was reading somewhere else that some brewers were using ONLY K1-V1116 for some beer fermentations. If I can find the link I will post it.

This also got me thinking about how to get some character from the wine yeast. I thought about fermenting primary with the beer yeast, then adding honey into secondary along with the wine yeast. Don't know if that would get enough character from the wine yeast, though.

Anyway, it's worth considering some of this stuff. I recommend listening to that episode of the Session.

Here's a quick breakdown of the yeasts he listed and their character. Like I said "killer" means it will kill off the beer yeast. Sorry if I messed any names up. You'll just have to listen to the episode yourselves! "susceptible" with the 71B means it doesn't produce that killer protein and can play well with other yeasts. I think it's the same as "active", "neutral" and "sensitive" for competitive factor on this chart I'm linking, but this chart doesn't list if a beer is negative for phenol off flavors.

http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/yeast_chart.php

Here's what the guy said in the interview:

71B susceptible fruit salad, all sorts of crazy fruitiness.
EC1118 killer neutral winey character. maybe with belgians.
K1V1116 killer stone fruit, peach
GRE killer fresh berry
BM45 killer cherry tremendous mouthfeel
L2226 killer berry
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Old 06-09-2013, 11:55 AM   #8
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BTW, Love Buzz is awesome. Anchorage Brewing was at Copenhagen Beer Celebration, which I attended, and they had a lot of really, really nice beers. Lots of tasty Brett.
Jealous. I bet that was one heck of an event. I think Anchorage is as good or better than any brewery in the US. I've only had Love Buzz and Galaxy, I need to put some effort into getting the other stuff. Another Session has a really good interview with Gabe Fletcher.

Great write up on the wine yeast episode. It's an interesting one. Another section of the interview is all about oak, maybe Matt can do cliff notes for it, to.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:02 PM   #9
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Jealous. I bet that was one heck of an event. I think Anchorage is as good or better than any brewery in the US. I've only had Love Buzz and Galaxy, I need to put some effort into getting the other stuff. Another Session has a really good interview with Gabe Fletcher.

Great write up on the wine yeast episode. It's an interesting one. Another section of the interview is all about oak, maybe Matt can do cliff notes for it, to.
Yeah, that was the best beer festival I've ever been to. I haven't been to GABF, though, but I've been to the Great British Beer Festival, Belgian Beer Weekend in Brussels, the summer beer fest in Portland a ton of times, a beer festival put on by Anderson Valley Brewing more than a dozen years ago and a few others here and there. The one in Copenhagen had them all beat. Tons of American brewers were there. You'd usually receive your beer straight from the brewer, so could ask questions. No tokens, no paying, just buy the ticket (yes, expensive) ahead of time, go in and drink whatever you want. Good way to do it. It was the most fun I had at a beer festival for sure. Crowd was limited to 1000 people as well. And the tickets sold out within a week of the announcement. So, it was pretty much all beer geeks and none of the people just out to get wasted. I mean, we DID get wasted, but just because there were so many beers we wanted to try. We got through 110 in a day and a half. Small glasses. Just a really nice way to do it. I sampled tons of Brett beers.

I heard that Anchorage session as well. Another nice one.

With this wine yeast episode, I didn't listen to the barrel aging part of it as I'm not doing that at the moment. It's saved for later if I ever get around to doing that. Can't do it in my current space.
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Old 06-09-2013, 04:13 PM   #10
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Unless your fermentation stalled, wine yeast won't dry a beer out. It's incapable of fermenting maltotriose, generally. 3724 will ferment far more sugars than a wine yeast (again, unless it's stalled). You can use wine yeast when bottling as it will eat the sugars you added, but it's not going to eat more malt sugars than the beer yeast already has.
I learn something new everyday. I'll have to check out some of those sessions you mentioned.

But yeah, I assumed 3724 would slow around 1.020 and then the wine yeast could take over. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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