HBT 2015 Big Giveaway - This is it - Final Weekend to Enter!

Huge Supporting Membership Discounts - 20% Off - Final Weekend!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Tannin Flavor
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-30-2013, 06:35 PM   #1
cosmo
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montverde, FL
Posts: 124
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default Tannin Flavor

I have been getting a slight but distinct tannin flavor in my beers and I can't seem to find the cause. I'll try to explain my process in detail. I use all RO water even though my well water has moderate alkalinity (total alkalinity: 57) and no other issues (Ward Labs test). I use RO because I already have an RO unit and it is convenient to use, so that brings the alkalinity down to probably well below 5. Do I need more alkaliniity? I add calcium chloride and gypsum to get about 75 ppm Ca. I get the same tannic flavor in all kinds of beers (Pale Ale, Helles, etc.) with both pilsner and pale 2-row base malts. I do only a single rest. Should I try a protien rest? My mash pH is always arround 5.2-5.3. If anything this is on the low side. Could low pH cause tannins? I thought only high pH was an issue. I adjusted my barley crusher to slightly below the factory setting. Not sure the gap off-hand but I don't have any problems with stuck sparges. I batch sparge with all RO water and no water treatment. Could that be an issue? I didn't think I needed acid since it is RO. I vorlof a quart or two then let it run into the kettle. I get great cold break which is pretty much all left behind in the kettle and chill down below fermentation temperature. I'm at a loss for what to do next. Any suggestions?
cosmo is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 07:58 PM   #2
SamBrewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Cremella (Italy)
Posts: 147
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo View Post
I have been getting a slight but distinct tannin flavor in my beers and I can't seem to find the cause. I'll try to explain my process in detail. I use all RO water even though my well water has moderate alkalinity (total alkalinity: 57) and no other issues (Ward Labs test). I use RO because I already have an RO unit and it is convenient to use, so that brings the alkalinity down to probably well below 5. Do I need more alkaliniity? I add calcium chloride and gypsum to get about 75 ppm Ca. I get the same tannic flavor in all kinds of beers (Pale Ale, Helles, etc.) with both pilsner and pale 2-row base malts. I do only a single rest. Should I try a protien rest? My mash pH is always arround 5.2-5.3. If anything this is on the low side. Could low pH cause tannins? I thought only high pH was an issue. I adjusted my barley crusher to slightly below the factory setting. Not sure the gap off-hand but I don't have any problems with stuck sparges. I batch sparge with all RO water and no water treatment. Could that be an issue? I didn't think I needed acid since it is RO. I vorlof a quart or two then let it run into the kettle. I get great cold break which is pretty much all left behind in the kettle and chill down below fermentation temperature. I'm at a loss for what to do next. Any suggestions?
First time I've used RO water I've noticed that kind of problem too. CaCl2 added in very soft water tend to accentuate that. Using RO water you will find that Cl/S04 ration become critical (something that I coulden't undersand before). So first of all in my opinion you have to pay attention to final profile of the water. One easy way to find out if the problem is just a water mineral content, is to make a beer using spring water. Try to replicate one recipe changing only water, if you'll end up with the same problem than you have to focus on other aspects
SamBrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 04:45 PM   #3
cosmo
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montverde, FL
Posts: 124
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Thanks Sam. That sounds like it could be the issue. I would like to stay away from spring water because I don't know the mineral content. I may try using 75% RO and 25% tap water instead of all RO water. I'm not sure if something is missing or if my pH is too low. Would it make sense to add a little Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate)?

Anyone else also have experience with this?
cosmo is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 08:14 PM   #4
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 3,164
Liked 276 Times on 232 Posts
Likes Given: 29

Default

It sounds like you are doing things correctly. Somewhat low pH, boosting the Ca, using RO water. The one thing not described was the end of sparging cut-off point or criteria. It is still possible to over-sparge and extract tannins.

The untreated RO water sparge is OK since it have very low alkalinity. However, I do recommend that the Ca content of that water also be increased to increase the osmotic pressure on the husk membranes and reduce the potential that the tannins would be drawn into the wort.

Given the pH readings, there should not be a need to add alkalinity to the mash unless you want that to alter the wort character. Raising the alkalinity and pH would increase the potential for tannin extraction. So where you are now, is OK.
__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks
mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2013, 11:19 PM   #5
jmf143
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wixom, Michigan
Posts: 607
Liked 19 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
However, I do recommend that the Ca content of that water also be increased to increase the osmotic pressure on the husk membranes and reduce the potential that the tannins would be drawn into the wort.
I have never heard of this tip before. Should I be adding all of my sparge additions to my sparge water regardless of the amount Martin, or is there a ppm threshold for Ca in the sparge that I should stay under?
__________________
Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur
jmf143 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 12:51 AM   #6
cosmo
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Montverde, FL
Posts: 124
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
The one thing not described was the end of sparging cut-off point or criteria. It is still possible to over-sparge and extract tannins.
Thanks for your response Martin. It's great to get advice from experts such as yourself. I do batch sparging so I don't think over-sparging is possible, especially with all RO. I will try splitting up my calcium additions between the mash and sparge water next time. That sounds like a good idea. Makes sense to me.

Do you think doing a protein rest could also help? From what I have read, proteins and polyphenols could be imbalanced. I'm getting both tannin taste and some chill haze.
cosmo is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 01:19 AM   #7
Weezy
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Weezy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,614
Liked 257 Times on 204 Posts
Likes Given: 175

Default

aggressive sparging and high temp mash out came to mind.

some info here... see the part under what is sparging:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html
__________________
On Tap: Mild, Munich lager, session IPA
Aging: pale sour solera, yeast bay lambic, dregs lambic, dark english wheat on Roeselare blend
Weezy is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 01:42 PM   #8
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 3,164
Liked 276 Times on 232 Posts
Likes Given: 29

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo View Post
Do you think doing a protein rest could also help? From what I have read, proteins and polyphenols could be imbalanced. I'm getting both tannin taste and some chill haze.
With today's malt quality, protein rests are rarely beneficial or called for. In most cases, they diminish beer body and mouthfeel. I'm not sure what is meant by proteins and polyphenols being imbalanced. I've not heard of a 'balance' for those components.

While we are on the issue of polyphenols, they can be contributed by either malt or hop. So if these beers are dry hopped or have large late hop additions, its possible that the polyphenols are hop derived. Just another point to ponder.
__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks
mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2013, 09:45 AM   #9
SamBrewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Cremella (Italy)
Posts: 147
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmo View Post
Thanks Sam. That sounds like it could be the issue. I would like to stay away from spring water because I don't know the mineral content. I may try using 75% RO and 25% tap water instead of all RO water. I'm not sure if something is missing or if my pH is too low. Would it make sense to add a little Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate)?

Anyone else also have experience with this?
When I perform test like this I prefer going to the opposite side... Consider it just a test batch
SamBrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 05:33 PM   #10
JABBY
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 87
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 15

Default

I am going to guess that RO water is reverse osmoses. If it is and this is indeed a problem then does anyone know off the top of their head how culligan water is filtered? And if it is good to use right off the tap?
__________________
"Make sure that the beer four pints a week goes to the troops under fire before any of the parties in the rear get a drop."
-Winston Churchill to his Secretary of War, 1944
JABBY is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
using tannin motobrewer Cider Forum 16 07-17-2012 01:18 PM
Tea for Tannin Hedley Wine Making Forum 7 06-15-2012 10:50 AM
Steeping volume flavor/tannin extraction StophJS Extract Brewing 3 01-27-2012 03:04 PM
Tannin edmanster General Chit Chat 2 03-24-2011 01:06 AM
Bitter astringent/tannin flavor Phan71 General Techniques 6 07-29-2007 11:28 PM


Forum Jump

Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS