Yeast immobilization: magic beans of fermentation - Page 14 - Home Brew Forums
Register Now For Free!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Fermentation & Yeast > Yeast immobilization: magic beans of fermentation

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-16-2013, 07:27 PM   #131
Warthaug
Recipes 
 
Apr 2011
, Ontario
Posts: 583
Liked 149 Times on 100 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by chocotaco View Post
Given what you are saying - that oxygenation is important to ester formation and is also needed for yeast growth - would it be possible to eliminate ester formation by 1) not oxygenating my wort and 2) massively over-pitching to compensate for the poor oxygenation's effect on yeast growth? What would be the side effects of that?
Typically high pitch rates reduce esters, but I'd be wary of not oxygenating; while the main reason for oxygen is to get some cell division, it does have an impact on non-ester flavour compounds. I think (but am not sure) that less O2 can create more phenolics or higher alcohols (I forget which).

Bryan
__________________
My blog: Recipes, Wild Yeasts, Yeast Farming, Yeast Exchange & More!

 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 07:38 PM   #132
Hermit
Recipes 
 
Nov 2009
Alternate Universe
Posts: 2,281
Liked 72 Times on 61 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by MalFet View Post
2) yeast on the surface budded off and colonized the batch free-range style.

The beer is cloudier than it was this morning, but still quite a bit clearer than the control batch.
This is my guess, especially based on the cloudiness. Poor sanitation would probably show up later and slower.

 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 07:46 PM   #133
chocotaco
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Recipes 
 
Oct 2012
San Clemente
Posts: 1,424
Liked 159 Times on 102 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by MalFet View Post
As far as I can think, there are two possibilities: 1) I picked up something wild, or 2) yeast on the surface budded off and colonized the batch free-range style.
This brings up an interesting point - I'm not hypothesizing that you have contamination, but if the yeast aren't propagating throughout the wort, then they won't have an opportunity to "crowd out" other critters that might have slipped through the cracks. Perfect sanitation would be even more critical.

 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 07:47 PM   #134
Tinga
 
Tinga's Avatar
Recipes 
 
May 2010
MN
Posts: 1,122
Liked 39 Times on 30 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
This is my guess, especially based on the cloudiness. Poor sanitation would probably show up later and slower.
I would agree. So if the yeast is indeed budding off is there a point to immobilization? other than a degree clearer beer?
__________________
Why Not?

 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 07:50 PM   #135
Tinga
 
Tinga's Avatar
Recipes 
 
May 2010
MN
Posts: 1,122
Liked 39 Times on 30 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by chocotaco View Post
This brings up an interesting point - I'm not hypothesizing that you have contamination, but if the yeast aren't propagating throughout the wort, then they won't have an opportunity to "crowd out" other critters that might have slipped through the cracks. Perfect sanitation would be even more critical.
the yeast are still using up a large portion of the available nutrition as well as producing alcohol so I'm not sure if crowding out would matter.
__________________
Why Not?

 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 08:05 PM   #136
Hermit
Recipes 
 
Nov 2009
Alternate Universe
Posts: 2,281
Liked 72 Times on 61 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinga View Post
So if the yeast is indeed budding off is there a point to immobilization?
That is what we are waiting on the answer to.

permanentlytemporary Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 08:09 PM   #137
MalFet
/bɪər nɜrd/
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
MalFet's Avatar
Recipes 
 
May 2010
NYC / Kathmandu
Posts: 8,632
Liked 1474 Times on 975 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by Warthaug View Post
1) In my (limited) reading no one has tried to alter ester profiles through controlling oxygen concentrations, etc
You should read more broadly then.

This relationship is extensively explored in the brewing literature, and virtually every review article discusses the experimental findings. See, for example, "Control of Ester Synthesis During Brewery Fermentation" (Smart 2008).

I understand that it is a great deal of fun for the basic research guys to denigrate the applied research guys (and I'm sure I'm guilty of it in my day job), but ultimately the purpose here is to brew better beer, right? If you're actually trying to do something, the basic science literature is generally incredibly frustrating. To that end, I'm not sure what good comes from separating oxygen-dependent processes from cell division if, as you say, "in the brewing world oxygen dependent processes are almost impossible to separate from cell division".

If there's an upshot here for beer brewing rather than explorations in metabolism, I'd love to hear it. Sincerely. I must admit, though, I'm having a very hard time extracting a tangible punchline from the distinctions you're carving.
__________________
"Be excellent to each other." -Benjamin Franklin

 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 09:15 PM   #138
Warthaug
Recipes 
 
Apr 2011
, Ontario
Posts: 583
Liked 149 Times on 100 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by MalFet View Post
I understand that it is a great deal of fun for the basic research guys to denigrate the applied research guys (and I'm sure I'm guilty of it in my day job), but ultimately the purpose here is to brew better beer, right? If you're actually trying to do something, the basic science literature is generally incredibly frustrating.
I don't think I denigrated anyone; as I said, I try to be nice. But by the standards of most bio fields, the commercial fermentation literature is sub-par.

I've found the basic literature to be very useful for some of my wild yeast and "custom-strain" stuff; I guess 'useful' is in the eye of the beholder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MalFet View Post
To that end, I'm not sure what good comes from separating oxygen-dependent processes from cell division if, as you say, "in the brewing world oxygen dependent processes are almost impossible to separate from cell division".
Well, in your experiment it may be possible to do just that - its an exciting prospect (at least, it is to me). But going back to my OP, it again is consistent with esters not being produced during the aerobic/cell division portion of the ferment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MalFet View Post
If there's an upshot here for beer brewing rather than explorations in metabolism, I'd love to hear it. Sincerely. I must admit, though, I'm having a very hard time extracting a tangible punchline from the distinctions you're carving.
Well, firstly I did start my posts in reply to a metabolism question, so the direction of the conversation makes sense (at least, it does to me).

The upshot for brewing could be more control over the final product - being able to separate flavour production from other aerobic processes (which your beads may be able to do) would give us a great deal more control.

Bryan

EDIT: unless I'm mis-reading, the paper you cited didn't look at yeast in beads, but rather just at ester production in general.
__________________
My blog: Recipes, Wild Yeasts, Yeast Farming, Yeast Exchange & More!

 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 09:25 PM   #139
paulster2626
 
paulster2626's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Aug 2011
Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,862
Liked 337 Times on 226 Posts


I love this! Great stuff!

 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 10:20 PM   #140
TANSTAAFB
 
TANSTAAFB's Avatar
Recipes 
 
May 2010
San Luis Valley, CO
Posts: 1,771
Liked 121 Times on 94 Posts


I agree, this conversation y'all are having has provided me with a great deal of information using language that I (a layperson) can mostly follow. I don't think it's tangential at all. In fact I think it is highly relevant to the questions at hand. Not to mention highly entertaining! And it gives us something to do until the Mupor guys get back from TX and start posting again!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirilis View Post
"I cant handle that buddy.. it tastes like Moose Piss", (IPA) - side note.. ive never had moose piss, but im sure it doesnt taste like IPA or I would have a moose.
Bottled: Grizzly Saison, Grizzly Brett, Session Pale, Colorado Cream Ale, Cranberry Apfelwein
Primary: -37* Blue Balls Baltic Porter, Bad Dog Brown, Bohemian Pilsner
Secondary: Rarely!!!
Future: Cognitive Dissonance Cascadian Dark Ale

 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
adding coffee beans in secondary fermentation ameadrat General Beer Discussion 15 08-27-2015 08:14 PM
Adding coffe beans during second fermentation?? kzhilton Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 10 03-23-2012 07:19 PM
Wild Yeast or Magic? Tarheel4985 Fermentation & Yeast 10 12-21-2010 01:45 AM
Found the 'Magic' in 'Magic Chef' - keezer progress, questions MadDwarf Kegerators & Keezers 66 12-09-2010 05:41 PM
magic chef for fermentation fridge? jigidyjim Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 4 07-04-2010 03:48 PM


Forum Jump