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Old 04-15-2013, 07:01 PM   #101
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swell, so you keep choping up the larger size to smaller and say 'see more surface area' and yes that is true, but for a given volume a single sphere will have the lowest surface area, not the most when compared to a equal volume of another solid (my original point on that).

However given that small sphere, or even ovid or teardrops can be produced more rapidly, it is much more efficent to make more spheres (or near spheres) than it woudl be to make cubes, or pyramids. In fact a torus (aka doughnut) might have even more surface area/volume than a cube, but it would be a pain to make compared to doughnut holes

And again, it isn't surface area per volume that is the real limiter in my opinion, it is surface area per time to make. I have much less time compared to the cost of ingredients that I'd rather just make more spheres.
Considering that this is what I said originally, I think what's confusing (at least to me) is that it's not clear exactly what you're objecting to.


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Old 04-15-2013, 08:20 PM   #102
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LOL at all the snake/sphere/pyramid/star/donut SA/V discussion.

Malfest is correct in that spheres are easy to make and quite consistent too.
When I get all my material, I'll "sphering" like a mofo!

Any suggestions on food coloring?


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Old 04-15-2013, 08:43 PM   #103
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It's not quite a myth. The purpose of esters in metabolism is still poorly understood, but Briggs speculates that they serve as a way for yeast to regulate acetyl-CoA to free CoA ratios in the environment. This is tied in to population growth because acetyl-CoA is used up during lipid synthesis, which is primarily important as a constituent of cell membranes.
Hence why myth was in quotes. That said, I'm not sure I would buy the argument that they serve to regulate CoA:acetyl-CoA ratios, for two reasons. One, is the genes for ester production are not essential - several studies have knocked them out of yeast and seen no effect on fitness (granted, in a laboratory situation). Secondly, there are a lot of acetyl-CoA "sinks" in the cell - the idea that permeable/soluble substrate that is typically present at low levels makes any degree of difference in that system is dubious, IMO.

The 'conventional' role for many of these transferases appears to be to regulate lipid particles (an energy store) in cells; possibly via forming esters which can later be 'cannibalized' for energy production. The few kinetic studies I've seen done suggests that these enzymes work equally well in both directions (i.e. they work as well as de-esterases as they do as esterases), suggesting that ester formation in fermenters may be an 'accent' created by the unusual conditions, with 'business as usual' being the de-esterase activity of these enzymes.

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Old 04-15-2013, 10:46 PM   #104
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Considering that this is what I said originally, I think what's confusing (at least to me) is that it's not clear exactly what you're objecting to.
That makes two of us.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:57 PM   #105
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swell, so you keep choping up the larger size to smaller and say 'see more surface area' and yes that is true, but for a given volume a single sphere will have the lowest surface area, not the most when compared to a equal volume of another solid (my original point on that).
But the question, when dealing with a set volume of yeast, and where you're interested in maximum surface area, is not "what one shape gives me the most surface area", but rather "how can i practically maximize surface area." And in that situation, a large number of any shape (be it sphere or worm or torus or whatever else) is generally going to give you more surface area than a significantly smaller number of any shape (be it sphere or worm or torus whatever else). And given that a worm, of any type, is pretty much by definition going to be meaningfully larger than the smallest particle you can reasonably make, stringing a bunch of material together to make worms is not going to maximize your surface area.

As you mention, practicality certainly favors many small spheres over worms, and as malfet pointed out, actually creating shapes other than spheres with this method would be challenging.

And with that, I'm done.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:14 PM   #106
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Hence why myth was in quotes. That said, I'm not sure I would buy the argument that they serve to regulate CoA:acetyl-CoA ratios, for two reasons. One, is the genes for ester production are not essential - several studies have knocked them out of yeast and seen no effect on fitness (granted, in a laboratory situation). Secondly, there are a lot of acetyl-CoA "sinks" in the cell - the idea that permeable/soluble substrate that is typically present at low levels makes any degree of difference in that system is dubious, IMO.

The 'conventional' role for many of these transferases appears to be to regulate lipid particles (an energy store) in cells; possibly via forming esters which can later be 'cannibalized' for energy production. The few kinetic studies I've seen done suggests that these enzymes work equally well in both directions (i.e. they work as well as de-esterases as they do as esterases), suggesting that ester formation in fermenters may be an 'accent' created by the unusual conditions, with 'business as usual' being the de-esterase activity of these enzymes.

Bryan
Hmm...now I'm more confused. If you put "myth" in quotes because you don't think it's a myth, why are you saying that the myth-in-quotes isn't true?

In any case, I'm not sure I follow why gene knock-out experiments or other available acetyl-CoA sinks should undermine the notion that ester formation is related to kinds of lipid synthesis tied to reproduction. There's a world of difference between 'essential' and 'advantageous' as far as evolution is concerned. Simply put, ester production requires metabolic energy, so it's very hard to justify the idea that it does not serve a purpose.

I might be misunderstanding you. This gets above my pay grade quickly, but for exactly that reason I'm inclined to believe Briggs and Bamforth when they tell me that a yeast growth cycle is necessary for a "normal" ester profile.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:55 PM   #107
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How long does it take to harden? If it's quick -- say, about how long it takes liquid egg to cook solid in boiling water -- you could very easily make some high-surface-area shapes by drizzling the slurry in while vigorously stirring, the same way you make egg drop soup.
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Old 04-16-2013, 04:08 AM   #108
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Any suggestions on food coloring?
I like red.
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:03 AM   #109
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yes yeast colors
There's a good chance that food coloring will be able to permeate the "membrane", especially considering the sugars that are already able to permeate. I mean, people can go try it if they want, but it seems very likely that you will essentially be adding food coloring to your beer as well.
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:17 AM   #110
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As for making the barrier more permeable, I read much of the article one poster linked and it described how it can be with chitosan. But really, what kind of person has THAT stuff just lying around their house??


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