2nd infection in a row, can't find the source

I just made a batch of Cooper's blonde ale on Friday night and it is infected. It smells like vinegar and has a definite vinegar taste, the same as my previous batch. I'm using a Cooper's fermenter for my primary. After I dumped the last batch I soaked the fermenter overnight in hot concentrated Oxyclean solution. That dissolved the little bit of krausen that formed. I then rinsed it with really hot water and washed it with One Step and a soft (clean) sponge and soaked the spigot, spoon and my wine thief (it is easier to use for hydrometer samples than the spigot) in One Step. Lastly I made several gallons of StarSan and shook the crap out of the fermenter. I let it dry and I put it together and out of the way for a few weeks covered and closed up.

For this batch I cleaned everything again with One Step and sanitized it all with freshly made StarSan I made with distilled water. I rehydrated my yeast (US-05) in distilled water I heated in my microwave. EVERYTHING that came into contact with the yeast and wort were cleaned and sanitized. I even cleaned and sanitized the scissors and can opener and the top of the Cooper's can lid. I used brand new 1 gallon bottles of spring water.

I know a lot of people swear plastic is more trouble that it is worth, but quite a few say otherwise, so I'm not sure who to believe. Could it be that I have a scratch that is harboring something or maybe there is something in the environment? I turned the furnace off when I made this to keep dust from moving around in the air. I poured most of the water into the fermenter and stirred it in my basement so maybe it is something down there? I made sure to put the lid on in between taking a hydrometer sample and pitching the yeast. The yeast sat covered upstairs under aluminum foil I sprayed well with StarSan.

I've got another kit I want to try but I only have 5 gallon carboys I use for secondary and for wine/cider and and ale pale that I use as my bottling bucket (no spigot, I just use an autosiphon with bottle filler). I haven't made wine in a while so I can't use it as comparison. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the problem before I blow another $30 and SWMBO gets fed up.

I am guessing that it is way to early in the process to think you have an infection already...did the yeast start? did a foamy krausen form on top of the yeast? Hopefully you are jumping to conclusions.

Dump the bucket/fermenter and try another one (new). Also, replace and tubing, plastic containers, strainers, etc. that touch the wort between boil and fermenter. While you are at it also replace the airlock and any shoppers you may use.

I just noticed the line about the money and your wife's patience. The problem is that you are going to pay for replacement equipment or keep flushing batches.

Is it possible that at some time you touched both batches with something that was't sanitized well? Is there someplace where your procedure is breaking down?

Never used glass and have been using the same bucket I started with and no infections. If the bug can get into a scratch then for sure the starsan can get into it and kill it.

I am thinking part of your system is going wrong someplace. Any thing pre boil you can be sloppy but after the boil everything needs to be sanitized. Cool the wort down below pitching temps so that it does not suck back anything and use starsan in your vapor lock just in case some does suck back.

Leave it closed for the two weeks before you even think about taking a gravity. I know it is hard but the set and forget method is by far the best.

wilserbrewer said:

I am guessing that it is way to early in the process to think you have an infection already...did the yeast start? did a foamy krausen form on top of the yeast? Hopefully you are jumping to conclusions.

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I've brewed several batches with US-05 and I've never had this particular smell. Even this early it smells like malt vinegar. I'm going to let it finish and see how it tastes after it attenuates. I have a foam on top and there is a ton of CO2 blowing off so I know the yeast is working. I pitched the yeast at 59*F and it is sitting in my cold basement wrapped in a towel and the temp is now up to 65*F. I was able to pick up this same smell and taste very early in the previous batch. Some people suggested it was just diacetyl b/c I used S-04, but I brought it up to 70*F for a couple of days when it was within a few points of done and after it attenuated it was definitely vinegar.

I hope you're right and I'm just jumping to conclusions...

I just dumped a batch made with 05 as well. Smelled like rotten vinegar and the beer was thick after sitting for 3 days

My first check would be: is everything "visibly clean".

Also, If you use the 5 gallon carboy & you don't get the infection, you know it's the bucket or lid. If you do get the infection, you know it's something else.

Are you making these brews according to the Coopers process of boiling up only part of the water, putting it into the fermenter, stirring in the extract and then adding cold water up to the required volume? If so, that could be the problem. However, if you are boiling all the water with the extract you should not be having a problem based on all the cleaning and sanitizing you are doing. In fact, if you are doing the full boil, forget about sanitizing all the stuff on the hot side. The boiling wort will kill any bad stuff. HOWEVER, while the hot concentrated wort you mix in your fermenter is sterile, the other water you put in the fermenter, unless you boiled it MIGHT NOT be.. even tho it's "safe" to drink.

I never had a bad batch (infection wise) from the Coopers process.. but, I would never make another batch like that.. my own bias. I want everything on the boil side heated properly. Then once the cooling process takes place.. everything well sanitized from there on out... that is, when the wort is reaching 170-180* on the way down. Thermometers, hydrometers, countertops, you name it. Sanitation, sanitation, sanitation.. PREACH IT BROTHA.

One last question and one last comment.

The question is.. does your bucket/fermenter have a spigot? If so.. remove it from the bucket and disassemble it. Sanitize separately. It may well be the cause of your problem if there is bad stuff stuck in a crevice in the valve or even behind the gasket. Those gaps are much larger than a small scratch in a bucket. When you clean your bucket with 'DISSOLVED" oxyclean.. use a soft cloth like an old T-shirt or one of the microfiber cloths used for cars etc. They don't scratch. I say dissolved because Oxy-Clean is a rough "crystal" chunk material the could easily scratch soft plastic. Some may think this is over do.. but, you are having problems.

Forgot what the other comment was.. but thought of another. Above, you mention cleaning with oxy/pbw.. starsan and then covering and putting away. It would be a good idea to do a final starsan AT transfer time... not let it sit for hours or days expecting it to still be sanitary from a brewing standpoint. Strict sanitation and temperature are the two most important things after good cleaning, IMO.

Hope all goes well with you. I'll remember that last comment after I close

Spring water is NOT sanitary like distiller water is. I'm guessing both batches were made from the same kind of water and springs have bacteria in them. Try doing all the same steps and use distiller water I'd bet it works out fine, but that's just my 2 cents worth.

Also. I'd give it a full 14 days before I'd open and test it just to see if it changes.

ThaBrewFather06 said:

Spring water is NOT sanitary like distiller water is. I'm guessing both batches were made from the same kind of water and springs have bacteria in them. Try doing all the same steps and use distiller water I'd bet it works out fine, but that's just my 2 cents worth.

Also. I'd give it a full 14 days before I'd open and test it just to see if it changes.

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The previous batch was made with distilled water but it was suggested that I was wasting my money and should use spring water. I was previously using distilled water since I had very bitter beers with my tap water, being due to how hard the water is.

cluckk said:

I just noticed the line about the money and your wife's patience. The problem is that you are going to pay for replacement equipment or keep flushing batches.

Is it possible that at some time you touched both batches with something that was't sanitized well? Is there someplace where your procedure is breaking down?

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I'm more than willing to buy new equipment, I just don't want to do it if it isn't necessary. I haven't used either of the carboys since I made a batch of EdWort's Apfelwein back in November and bottled it early last month, so I don't have any point of reference.

HopSong said:

Are you making these brews according to the Coopers process of boiling up only part of the water, putting it into the fermenter, stirring in the extract and then adding cold water up to the required volume?

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Yes, I boil 3 liters of water and pour it into the sanitized fermenter, on top of the StarSan foam. I then pour in my DME and dextrose (I use the Austin Homebrew add pack) and swirl the fermenter to mix it. Then I pour in the LME from the can into the fermenter and pour 1 liter of boiling water into the can to get the last of it out and pour that into the fermenter, give it a good stir and then start cooling it by adding cold water.

I don't want to boil the LME since that just boils off the hop oils.

HopSong said:

The question is.. does your bucket/fermenter have a spigot?

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Yes, I cleaned it and sanitized it along with everything else. I also put it on the fermenter and let the StarSan run through it.

HopSong said:

Above, you mention cleaning with oxy/pbw.. starsan and then covering and putting away. It would be a good idea to do a final starsan AT transfer time... not let it sit for hours or days expecting it to still be sanitary from a brewing standpoint.

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I cleaned and sanitized it after the last batch and again before I made this batch. I always do that, and I always sanitize the fermenter right before I transfer the wort. This is why I can't get my head around this. I've been over every step and all I can think of is something airborne or something in a scratch in the bucket. The only other thing I can think of is the sponge. It was a brand new 3M sponge that I cut the scouring part off of and I soaked in the One Step and then again in StarSan.

I appreciate everyone's comments and input, but I don't see how it can be from a lack of cleaning and sanitizing. I'm going to pick up some pH strips so I can be certain my StarSan is good. I'm also debating using PBW as a cleanser instead of One Step.

I really don't want to go out and buy a 6 gallon carboy and brew hauler if it isn't going to solve the problem. Is it really plausible that aceto or lacto can be airborne or is it pretty certain to be infected by direct contact?

Thanks again.

Do you have a spigot on your carboy? That's a really nice place for nasties to hide. Your kettle spigot can also be a potential source of contamination. Even with the heat, there's little isolated pockets in a valve where the bugs can survive.

Yessir, I also mentioned the spigot in my earlier post to which there was no reply.. a scratch is tiny.. and while it can harbor bad beasties.. think of the cracks in the interfaces of the spigot. That's a real issue. Do you have the DIY fermenter? if so, not as much a problem as a standard bucket with it's valve. That has washers, etc. All forming 'big cracks' for bad guys to hide in.

And BINGO, you addressed the comment I didn't remember.. airborn bacteria. Especially if you have animals in the house.. and especially if you have a forced air heater going on at the same time.

The issue is not likely your StarSan... Try boiling 5 gallons of water and letting it cool overnight.. then refrigerate.. of course, all with saran wrap over the opening during the cooling process. I don't like the idea of using unboiled water in my beer.. which is why I don't like the Coopers process.. but, I said that earlier too Sorry for being repetitious.. but, your problem is sanitation post boil at the moment.

Vinegar is made when the bacteria converts alcohol to acedic acid. I find it hard to believe that you pitched the yeast on friday, the yeast made alcohol and the bacteria have already done their job to make the vinegar by monday. Hopefullly I'm wrong, but I always thought that alcohol turning to vinegar happened at a much slower rate?

Or is your tap water so contaminated that this is happening so quickly?

I don't think this is your problem, but ditch the sponge. Most sponges have chemical additives to keep them from molding and to keep them pliable. A dish rag that has been washed with bleach is my preferred cleaning device.

I prefer glass fermenters. I have 3 plastic buckets and one 6.5 gallon glass carboy. All of the buckets retain the odor of the last beer I made in them. I have never been able to clean them enough to get rid of the smell. IMHO, this means that the plastic absorbs portions of the fermenting beer. If that's possible, then it's also possible that they can harbor the baddies. Having said that, I've never had an issue with infection.

I would try different kits to see if it's an ingredient issue. If it's truly an infection, I agree that not boiling the wort makes you more prone to infection.

HopSong said:

Yessir, I also mentioned the spigot in my earlier post to which there was no reply..

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I answered your post and the other post where someone asked me if I had a spigot. YES - I cleaned and sanitized the spigot. I clean and sanitize everything BEFORE and AFTER I use it because I'm paranoid.

There is no spigot on the kettle, I just dump it into the fermenter.

I'm going to let this go and I'll check it in a couple of weeks. I have read countless posts from other people in the same position and most of them I'm sure are false alarms. I just hope I too fall into that category.

wilserbrewer said:

Vinegar is made when the bacteria converts alcohol to acedic acid. I find it hard to believe that you pitched the yeast on friday, the yeast made alcohol and the bacteria have already done their job to make the vinegar by monday. Hopefullly I'm wrong, but I always thought that alcohol turning to vinegar happened at a much slower rate?

Or is your tap water so contaminated that this is happening so quickly?

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I appreciate your feedback, but I have to disagree. Malt vinegar can be made simply by taking unfermented wort and putting acetobacter in it. The bacteria can convert the sugar into acetic acid, but they have an easier time converting alcohol.

The last batch tasted like vinegar, without any doubt of it being anything else, after just 4-5 days. After 7 days it was worse. It was like drinking malt vinegar, it was terrible. I refuse to believe that the smell and taste would have improved had I left sit for longer.

I bottled this batch yesterday. I left it in the fermenter for 7 weeks b/c I got busy. Man was it super clear, and the FG dropped from 1.010 to 1.009.

The vinegar smell was there for over 3 weeks, and for about a week after it reached FG it had a vinegar taste. I don't know how to explain it except maybe the smell was stuck in the plastic from the previous batch, which had definitely turned to vinegar. To me the fermenter always smells like hops when it is empty, even after a long soak in oxyclean. Very strange.