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Old 03-21-2013, 04:27 PM   #71
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I must say Marcus, thanks for starting this thread. It has been a treat to read with all the passion, rage, and sarcasm that came about. Also please let us known how it turns out. I'm fascinated to see what you think and what the results will be.
Hehe, no kidding!

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Old 03-22-2013, 02:29 AM   #72
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All I know from reading this is that Yoopers whatever-you-call-it sounds amazing.


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Old 03-22-2013, 06:34 AM   #73
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That was an entertaining 8 pages. I get most of my science on hops from Oregon State University, which has an amazing beer research program and Professor Shellhammer, who does a ton of research on hops. Shellhammer tested the idea that it is polyphenols in the hops that caused harshness. He found a "significant" perception of harsh bitterness and astringency in beer due to polyphenols. He found it also increased the the bitterness to linger longer.

This bit is from other research on polyphenols that I will apply to first wort hopping. Believe at your own risk, I don't have the time to piece together all the sources right now.

First wort hopping oxidizes the polyphenols in the hops which allows the polyphenols (makes it a harsh, astringent bitterness) to readily complex out. These compounds are then removed with a nice hot break, thus giving us more iso-acids and less polyphenols. Higher IBUs with less harshness. Bittering hops added after the hot break release polyphenols that are not as readily oxidized and are less soluble in the wort.

Wasn't it Yooper posting about being a big fan of strong, healthy hot breaks? Her hot break obsession combined with a FWH could be providing her beers with significant IBU contributions without much harshness and leaving a smooth, uniform bitterness.

On a side note, Miller owns a patent on a process described as "Method of preparing a full hop flavoured beverage of low bitterness". It patents the method of preparing light stable, hop flavoured, fermented beverages that possess less bitterness, yet have comparable hop flavour to a fermented beverage prepared with whole hops with the use of a high polyphenol hop flavouring residue that originates from a solid spent-hop material resultant from super-critical CO2 extraction of whole hops.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:18 PM   #74
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On a side note, Miller owns a patent on a process described as "Method of preparing a full hop flavoured beverage of low bitterness". It patents the method of preparing light stable, hop flavoured, fermented beverages that possess less bitterness, yet have comparable hop flavour to a fermented beverage prepared with whole hops with the use of a high polyphenol hop flavouring residue that originates from a solid spent-hop material resultant from super-critical CO2 extraction of whole hops.
That sounds really interesting. Miller should release a beer that uses the process. Full hop flavored would be nice.
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:38 PM   #75
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That sounds really interesting. Miller should release a beer that uses the process. Full hop flavored would be nice.
They do, any beer in clear glass bottles has this hop extract in it. Not sure they don't use it in everything else too.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:04 PM   #76
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They do, any beer in clear glass bottles has this hop extract in it. Not sure they don't use it in everything else too.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:10 AM   #77
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Ha!
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:04 PM   #78
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I hope you made that by hand and scanned it in, just for this occasion.


Wait...what...what is goo-gle?
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:22 PM   #79
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Wasn't it Yooper posting about being a big fan of strong, healthy hot breaks? Her hot break obsession combined with a FWH could be providing her beers with significant IBU contributions without much harshness and leaving a smooth, uniform bitterness.
"Obsession" with hot break? Me?

But I do think you are really on to something there.

I did this just yesterday- FWH with 1.5 ounces of hops (10 gallon batch, fly sparge so the FWH sat in 170 degree wort for almost an hour before boiling), then tons of late hops.

IBUs calculate pretty high, but I've made this beer about 50 times and it's not harshly bitter. It's got enough bittering to balance the malts for sure, and it's firmly bitter on the tongue, but it's not a lingering harshness. Instead, the bitterness is there but immediately the hops flavors and aromas take center stage.

Thanks for the info on the polyphenols. I'm not any sort of expert, and appreciate input from others. The only time I've really thought about polyphenols is when I'm lagering. One of the purposes of lagering near freezing is to "drop out polyphenols", as a German lager should be bitter without harshness as well.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:20 PM   #80
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Just my 2 cents, but FWH = meh... I'm usually using a fairly smooth bittering hop to begin with and loading up on late addition hops. Any difference from the technique seems to be lost in the mix.

FWH is a pretty old technique that seems to have come back into style. It was developed before any of the modern high AA% hops though. I suspect that if I was bittering with 4oz of EKG instead of 1oz of magnum or warrior, FWH would make a more substantial difference.


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