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Old 03-12-2013, 04:11 PM   #1
Beernoulli
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Default How to fix sour recipe with low primary FG?

I'm rebewing a sour saison base beer I made a few weeks ago. The last one I put onto cherries and added the dregs of one of Jester King's sour saisons. I want to have a similar un-cherried beer to compare, but last time the primary fermentation finished at 1.002. Not much there to sour.

I mashed at 156, so theres not much room to move up there. I fermented with White Labs Saison 2 from a starter, probably over pitched, and fermented at 73-75 for 3 days.

My current plan is to add dregs from 2 bottles (1 gallon batch) and under-pitch the Saison yeast.

I'm not really sure what a better solution would be. I'd like something with a decent level of bright sourness and some funk (I'm guessing around 1.010).

Maltodextrin? Higher or lower temperature? Under pitch? Co-inoculate? Pitch only dregs for a few days?

Any advice on any of these ideas?


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Old 03-13-2013, 10:18 PM   #2
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Pitch souring microbes with whatever yeast you are using. Mash higher like 160 and or use a long boil. A long boil will cause some caramelizing which will decrease some fermentability.


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Old 03-14-2013, 08:01 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokinghole View Post
Pitch souring microbes with whatever yeast you are using. Mash higher like 160 and or use a long boil. A long boil will cause some caramelizing which will decrease some fermentability.
Good advice, although I'm suspicious of the long boil advice. Caramelization doesn't really start happening until well above the boiling point of wort. You might get some Maillard reactions, but I doubt it would substantially lower fermentability (and I don't believe the melanoidins created are fermentable by the non-Saccharomyces organism anyway, or sour beers would all get paler and paler as they fermented!).
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:15 PM   #4
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I'd pitch the bugs with the yeast, or sometime after but before primary has finished--while there are still sugars present. I agree that the longer boil probably won't help your situation. I know I have had beers finish much higher after a longer boil, but not sure these will be useful for the bugs. It might help to know what strains you plan to use.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:17 PM   #5
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Pull out a decoction or 2 to boost your carmelization.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:02 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldsock View Post
Good advice, although I'm suspicious of the long boil advice. Caramelization doesn't really start happening until well above the boiling point of wort. You might get some Maillard reactions, but I doubt it would substantially lower fermentability (and I don't believe the melanoidins created are fermentable by the non-Saccharomyces organism anyway, or sour beers would all get paler and paler as they fermented!).
Caramelization is both temperature and pH dependent. It's partly why homebrewers making their own candi syrup are either increasing (in most cases) or decreasing pH. Yes candi syrup like CSI is more than caramelized sugar, the color is developed based on similar principles. At a neutral pH of 7 the temperatures are high with the lowest, fructose, being 110C. Then the temps rise from there up to maltose at 180C. The part I don't know is what the temps for caramelization to occur at a pH like that of wort. I do believe caramelization is happening and I use long boils because I can at home. I figure the cost of propane is not significant, and I'm not waiting to mash in another 2000kg of grain.

Anyhow I stand by a long boil, might not be the best way but it works if you're a stickler for simple recipes like me. My last Flanders I got to stop at 1.010 with no killing off microbes. I used normal malts a little bit of dark crystals to get my color up and a real long boil as if I were making a low alcohol wee heavy. I then just added back water to get my desired gravity.

Forgot say this. Whether it's malliard or caramelization a long boil develops one if not both which likely decreases the ability of the sugar to be fermented. I don't know for sure if melanodins are fermentable or not. There are many forms of melanoidin due to the varying types of sugar and amino compounds. So some may be fermentable by our beloved souring microbes and some might not be.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:21 AM   #7
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Pick a yeast that doesn't have such a high attenuation. That one is a monster with a published attenuation of 78 to 85%. That range is actually higher than the published range for the Wyeast monster 3711.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokinghole View Post
The part I don't know is what the temps for caramelization to occur at a pH like that of wort.
A quick Google search turned up this study on the caramelization and Maillard products on fructose under various pH conditions. As far as my liberal arts education can understand by skimming, they found that the amount of fructose remaining is higher the lower the pH of the boil was. I knew that was the case for Maillard reactions (which is why sourdough bread never browns well), but I wasn’t sure for caramelization. What acid does do it help to split larger sugars into their component parts, which is why it is sometimes added to candi sugar recipes?

While it appears that there is a tiny amount of caramelization even going on at pH 4-6, this is for fructose which comprises a small fraction of the sugars in wort. I’d suspect that there would be a far smaller amount of caramelization seen in wort than in this study.

I enjoy the boiling passed your target volume and topping off for its flavor contribution. I'm just trying to answer the original question posed about the best way to save fermentables for the bugs. It didn't sound like beernoulli was trying to get the FG higher, just save a more carbs for the microbes to go to work on.
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:53 PM   #9
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Wow, thanks for all the responses.

I really like this yeast because of its pepper/citrus flavor mix, is there a less attenuative or similar version out there somewhere?

Would adding maltodextrin or flaked wheat leave more long chain sugars for the bugs? What would be a good amount if so? (it's already milled with some malted wheat in the mix)

(This last brew I used a 90 minute boil and ended up with a lower OG than when I brewed it a year ago with a 60 minute boil and a table sugar addition and a 146F mash temp. I don't think it makes sense that a long boil means more fermentables, so maybe my 156F mash wasn't as high as I thought.)
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Old 03-15-2013, 10:02 PM   #10
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yup, try malto.


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Drinking: black harvest ale (wet-hopped with homegrown hops), witbier, hoppy saison, local sour cherry kriek, oud bruin, gueuz'ish thing, saison bottled with ECY34
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