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Old 02-19-2013, 06:02 PM   #21
SurlyBrew
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Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by stpug View Post
Based on countless posts in these forums, you are VERY unlikely to oversparge (i.e. run under 1.010 gravity) when batch sparging. This is much more of a consideration when fly sparging. I would exclude this as a culprit.

Your temperatures and volumes are perfectly within normal range, which should exclude these as culprits.

Your recipe doesn't even touch on dark grains, which should exclude this as a culprit.

Rahr 2row has a lower pH effect on water chemistry than most other 2row malts. What exactly does this mean and how could it pertain to you? Depending on your water chemistry and grainbill (specifically 11 lbs rahr 2row) you could potentially fall into a pH level that's too low which would put you at risk of tannin extraction, however I've always read that this needs to be coupled with too high temperatures (which you should NOT have had). This water chemistry aspect is relatively new to me and as such can't really say one way or another how this would have an effect, however it's worth taking a deeper look into. There are many very knowledgeable folks on this forum with a thorough knowledge of water chemistry that could help evaluate whether this had any affect of your brew.

I guess lastly would be "consider the source" - some people sense different things that others. It would be good to decide yourself if you think there's an astringency aspect to your brew. As long as you are objective and have a decent taste sensation then you should be able to pick up on something (i.e. drying of the tongue, unfamiliar 'bite')
Unfortunately, the beer was finished before I got the scores... So, I was not able to try it and read the notes.
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:06 PM   #22
SurlyBrew
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Originally Posted by Hopper5000 View Post
A refrac is a useful tool when measuring gravity. Ph usually isn't an issue unless you are doing an 100% base malt beer or a beer that uses a lot of dark grains. Bru N Water is a good spreadsheet to help you guess what your pH is, and I would agree with you that the strips aren't very helpful.

It is quite possible that it was an incorrect tasting note. Was it only one one sheet? I have had ones where 3 judges reviewed my beer and only one said it was astringent... however it did end up winning best of show
I do have a refractometer. I should check the gravity when sparging next time. I had 4 people judge the beer, and the only one with any BJCP certification experience mentioned astringency. I did place with this beer though. There were contradicting statements between judges. One said too bitter and another said not bitter enough. Nice one guys.
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Primary: Chinook/Simcoe Black IPA, Scottish Wee Heavy

Bottled: Dunkelweizen, Caribou Slobber Ale, Smooth Nut Brown Ale, Surly Furious Clone, Amarillo Pale Ale, Falconers Flight IPA, Citra Pale Ale (Award Winner), Blue Moon Clone, Simcoe/Citra/Amarillo Pale Ale, English India Pale Ale, Cream ale, Liberty Cream ale, 2012 Harvest Ale, Dog Fish Head 60 Min, Cream of Three Crops

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Old 02-19-2013, 06:08 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
I would steer clear of looking for the astringency in the mash and grains. I don't think that is where your astringency is coming from. I would look at the hops.
Really? I did this same recipe except it was extract and took second runner up. No astringency issues with the first one. Hop schedule was the exact same. One large new variable is the mash.
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Bottled: Dunkelweizen, Caribou Slobber Ale, Smooth Nut Brown Ale, Surly Furious Clone, Amarillo Pale Ale, Falconers Flight IPA, Citra Pale Ale (Award Winner), Blue Moon Clone, Simcoe/Citra/Amarillo Pale Ale, English India Pale Ale, Cream ale, Liberty Cream ale, 2012 Harvest Ale, Dog Fish Head 60 Min, Cream of Three Crops

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Old 02-19-2013, 06:25 PM   #24
Hopper5000
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yeah I have had that conflicting feedback too... doesn't really help me out at all, lol

 
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:28 PM   #25
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Just wondering if anyone considered the water? Tap or carbon filtered?
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:31 PM   #26
SurlyBrew
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Originally Posted by mbobhat View Post
Just wondering if anyone considered the water? Tap or carbon filtered?
At that time, I used St. Paul MN tap water (and still use it). From what I've heard, it is pretty good. I treated it with campden tablets the night before brewing. Since then I have purchased a carbon water filter and use that to filter the water.
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Bottled: Dunkelweizen, Caribou Slobber Ale, Smooth Nut Brown Ale, Surly Furious Clone, Amarillo Pale Ale, Falconers Flight IPA, Citra Pale Ale (Award Winner), Blue Moon Clone, Simcoe/Citra/Amarillo Pale Ale, English India Pale Ale, Cream ale, Liberty Cream ale, 2012 Harvest Ale, Dog Fish Head 60 Min, Cream of Three Crops

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Old 02-19-2013, 06:53 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurlyBrew View Post
At that time, I used St. Paul MN tap water (and still use it). From what I've heard, it is pretty good. I treated it with campden tablets the night before brewing. Since then I have purchased a carbon water filter and use that to filter the water.
Probably not chlorine then. That kind of astringency is just gross, ever since I've noticed it in my beer before filtering, I can taste it very easily in other's that didn't treat.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurlyBrew View Post
Really? I did this same recipe except it was extract and took second runner up. No astringency issues with the first one. Hop schedule was the exact same. One large new variable is the mash.
Unless your pH was WAY off, I would look at the hops rather than the grains. Using St. Paul tap water with the grain bill should be fine. Unless you shredded the husks to oblivion.

There are a lot of other variables besides the recipe being extract or grain. Yeast pitch, time, temp, serving method, protein content, etc...

Based on my experience, I am guessing that what you(I.E. the judges) are tasting is a hop tannin/polyphenol. Now that the beer is gone, you have no way to go back and try anything to fix it. Next time you taste astringency in a hoppy beer, try putting in a 1/2 length dip tube or hitting it with polyclar.

 
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
Unless your pH was WAY off, I would look at the hops rather than the grains. Using St. Paul tap water with the grain bill should be fine. Unless you shredded the husks to oblivion.

There are a lot of other variables besides the recipe being extract or grain. Yeast pitch, time, temp, serving method, protein content, etc...

Based on my experience, I am guessing that what you(I.E. the judges) are tasting is a hop tannin/polyphenol. Now that the beer is gone, you have no way to go back and try anything to fix it. Next time you taste astringency in a hoppy beer, try putting in a 1/2 length dip tube or hitting it with polyclar.
How do results with polyclar compare to say gelatin? I forgot to mention I cold crashed and used gelatin before cold crashing. Can't imagine that would have any affect.
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Bottled: Dunkelweizen, Caribou Slobber Ale, Smooth Nut Brown Ale, Surly Furious Clone, Amarillo Pale Ale, Falconers Flight IPA, Citra Pale Ale (Award Winner), Blue Moon Clone, Simcoe/Citra/Amarillo Pale Ale, English India Pale Ale, Cream ale, Liberty Cream ale, 2012 Harvest Ale, Dog Fish Head 60 Min, Cream of Three Crops

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Old 02-19-2013, 07:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stpug View Post
. . . Depending on your water chemistry and grainbill (specifically 11 lbs rahr 2row) you could potentially fall into a pH level that's too low which would put you at risk of tannin extraction, however I've always read that this needs to be coupled with too high temperatures (which you should NOT have had). . .
Its HIGH pH (> 6 ) coupled with high sparge water temps that lead to tannin extraction. That's why some brewers acidify their sparge water < 5.6 prior to sparging.
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