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Old 02-15-2013, 03:19 PM   #11
levifunk
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Cultured, commercial strains of brett, pitched at appropriate levels will ALWAYS out compete any wild yeast from the apple skins that find their way in. Commercial strains are trained to ferment, wild yeast is not yet. The effect of any wild yeast on a cider with pitched yeast is negligible. I will know the source of 99.9% of the fermentation. There will be obvious differences between the carboys due to the variations of brett strains. You really have no idea what you are talking about, and talking out of your ass. It blows my mind the amount of erroneous statements you've spouted so far....and you keep going.

Its odd that you are so against experimenting....which is all this is.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:07 PM   #12
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Go for it levi, I have always thought some guezes have a similar taste to cider (apple finish), I may pitch some dregs from some sours into my next cider and see how it goes. I can see this as a great experiment, I have only tried different sacc yeasts in my ciders and noticed some major differences, so I see no reason why this wouldnt be successful.

Really interested in the results.

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Old 02-15-2013, 05:06 PM   #13
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Thanks. Everything I have heard from people who have pitched sour dregs, or pitched a lambic blend, into cider has been that the saccharo dominated. I think because the brett has a slower growth, and all the sugars in cider are simple, that the saccharo out competes the brett and ferments everything before the brett has a chance to play a significant role.

Currently I have a barrel full of cider where we pitched a wild saison culture. It has yet to show signs of brett, so the initial fermentation was almost exclusively saccharo, but I'm hoping the brett is able to develop some flavor during an aging period. More promising is the keeve experiment I have going where I hope to have created an environment where brett and saccharo can ferment in tandem.

With these 100% brett experiments, I am looking to eliminate the saccharo all together and thereby ensure that the brett is able to ferment the sugars without competition.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:01 PM   #14
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Yeah, i was worried about the fact that all the sugars are simple, been debating trying a graff and mashing in high to make the sugars less available for the sacc. I was thinking about a saison yeast too and fermenting really warm (once it warms up a bit out here) to see what it would do. Again I am concerned with the simple sugars getting consumed quickly by sacc and not leaving anything else for the short bus yeasts.

 
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:53 PM   #15
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I say go for it, sounds like an awesome experiment, and would love to see what works out and what doesn't.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levifunk View Post
Cultured, commercial strains of brett, pitched at appropriate levels will ALWAYS out compete any wild yeast from the apple skins that find their way in. Commercial strains are trained to ferment, wild yeast is not yet. The effect of any wild yeast on a cider with pitched yeast is negligible. I will know the source of 99.9% of the fermentation. There will be obvious differences between the carboys due to the variations of brett strains. You really have no idea what you are talking about, and talking out of your ass. It blows my mind the amount of erroneous statements you've spouted so far....and you keep going.

Its odd that you are so against experimenting....which is all this is.
Good to see you have such a firm grasp of the principles of microbiology. You are using a yeast selected for secondary fermentation of beer to do a primary fermentation of cider, with no research to back you up, yet you are absolutely sure what will happen. If you can quote some peer reviewed research on primary fermentation of cider with brett, then it may mean something. What you are doing is just guesswork and magical thinking, not experimenting.
I am not saying you shouldn't do it, just that you shouldn't expect to draw useful conclusions.

 
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:39 PM   #17
levifunk
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Again....talking out of your ass. Brett is not "meant" for secondary fermentation. There is plenty of research to back that up....which is why I originally directed you to the phd dissertation on brett "Brettanomyces Project" and a proven brewery doing 100% brett fermentations; Crooked Stave. Also see Russian River's Sanctification. What I am doing is applying that knowledge to cider.....as an experiment....to see what each of these strains produce. This is not guesswork or magical thinking.

Seriously. Spend some time and listen to even 1 of Chad Yakobson's presentations I linked on the microbiology of Brettanomyces.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levifunk View Post
There is plenty of research to back that up....which is why I originally directed you to the phd dissertation on brett "Brettanomyces Project" and a proven brewery doing 100% brett fermentations;

Seriously. Spend some time and listen to even 1 of Chad Yakobson's presentations I linked on the microbiology of Brettanomyces.
One unpublished dissertation on beer for a masters degree doesn't count as peer reviewed research. You are in a cider forum, not beer.
Attending one presentation doesn't make you an expert.

 
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Old 02-16-2013, 03:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbathurst View Post
One unpublished dissertation on beer for a masters degree doesn't count as peer reviewed research. You are in a cider forum, not beer.
Attending one presentation doesn't make you an expert.
Where is all the research to backup all your statements? You seem to know very little about Brettanomyces yet you have a firm belief that what you are saying is true. Wyeast and White Labs package it for secondary fermentation simply because they contain significantly less cells than their Saccharomyces packages. Anything can be a primary fermenter in large enough population.

Define a weak fermenter. Is a highly attenuative yeast considered weak? Brett is known for attenuating much more than sacch, granted it may take a little longer.

As far as the low pH of Cider, Brett actually attenuates more, and in a shorter period of time in a lower pH environment.

I would consider data from a dissertation to be more accurate than a dude named greg in a cider forum, not a beer forum.

If anything, I would think Brett would ferment cider much easier as it contains simple sugars. Maltose is a complex sugar, so it would make sense that Brett would take more time to ferment it, and less time to ferment Cider.

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Old 02-16-2013, 01:23 PM   #20
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Odd pissing contest going on....

Anyway, sounds like an awesome experiment. I'd be very interested to see how this turns out. Brett in primary seems to be what barrel aging was like 2 years ago. The only 100% brett fermented beer I've ever had was so clean and didn't have any brett qualities I'm use to, so would be interesting to see what happens in Cider
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