Questions about Secondary Fermentation

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DM3MD157

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So my first batch (NB Dead Ringer IPA) is currently in the bottling bucket for primary fermentation at 66 degrees. I have a 6 gallon carboy that I plan on using as the secondary. I called NB up to ask some questions. The first time I called, the rep told me that a 6 gallon carboy is fine for 5 gallons when used as a secondary. He also said that I only have to leave the wort in the primary for 7 days. When I called NB again to ask a question, the new rep told me that I should NOT use the 6 gallon carboy as a secondary because it would ruin the beer, and that I should leave the wort in the primary for 3 weeks because I'm brewing at 66 degrees! The instructions say to primary for 1-2 weeks, and secondary for 2-4 weeks.

I am getting a lot of conflicting information. When I searched for the 5 gallon brew in a 6 gallon carboy on this forum, I also get some conflicting information. I can get a 5 gallon carboy if needed, but I don't want to get it if I don't need it! Also, some say that better bottles are better than glass? What about the chance of scratches and bacteria growing in them?
 
So my first batch (NB Dead Ringer IPA) is currently in the bottling bucket for primary fermentation at 66 degrees. I have a 6 gallon carboy that I plan on using as the secondary. I called NB up to ask some questions. The first time I called, the rep told me that a 6 gallon carboy is fine for 5 gallons when used as a secondary. He also said that I only have to leave the wort in the primary for 7 days. When I called NB again to ask a question, the new rep told me that I should NOT use the 6 gallon carboy as a secondary because it would ruin the beer, and that I should leave the wort in the primary for 3 weeks because I'm brewing at 66 degrees! The instructions say to primary for 1-2 weeks, and secondary for 2-4 weeks.

I am getting a lot of conflicting information. When I searched for the 5 gallon brew in a 6 gallon carboy on this forum, I also get some conflicting information. I can get a 5 gallon carboy if needed, but I don't want to get it if I don't need it! Also, some say that better bottles are better than glass? What about the chance of scratches and bacteria growing in them?

Your fine putting it in a six gallon. I do it ever time. The co2 will fill the head space.
 
How long should I primary and secondary for my IPA at 66 degrees?
 
There is no exact time for how long to leave your beer in the primary. Technically even if you dont see the airlock doing anything it can still be fermenting. I myself have skipped the secondary and I leave my beer in the primary for a minimum week after the airlock stops (usually I go about 3 weeks in the primary). The only real way to know is to take daily readings when it stops bubbling.

I dont do readings because a. I dont want to waste the beer b. dont want to constantly have to sanitize and expose my beer to potential germs, c. I'm lazy :)
 
There is no exact time for how long to leave your beer in the primary. Technically even if you dont see the airlock doing anything it can still be fermenting. I myself have skipped the secondary and I leave my beer in the primary for a minimum week after the airlock stops (usually I go about 3 weeks in the primary). The only real way to know is to take daily readings when it stops bubbling.

I dont do readings because a. I dont want to waste the beer b. dont want to constantly have to sanitize and expose my beer to potential germs, c. I'm lazy :)
So you ferment in the primary for three weeks then bottle, not using a secondary?
 
Yep the only time I would use a secondary is if I was going to add something to beer, dry hop etc.. Since I've started kegging I just dry hop in the keg using a hop bag and I pop the keg open and pull it out when I need to.

Really though as you get the hang of it siphoning off from your primary and dont pull up any trub you really wont need to do a secondary for clearer beer. If you do pull some trub up just continue siphoning to your bottling bucket, stir in your priming sugar (for bottling) put your lid on it the bucket and bottle it the following day. That will act like a secondary and help clear the trub you picked up. Just dont move around your bucket too much, you dont want to disturb the sediment.
 
The only real way to know is to take daily readings when it stops bubbling.
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DM3, I too am on my first batch of beer and my EPA kit's instructions were similar. 1 week in primary and 2-3 in the secondary where I'm going to dryhop.

I didn't bother taking OG reading but after 5 or so days the bubbling stopped so I left it in the primary a few more days to finish up. Total 8 days in primary.

Then I racked to my secondary, FG was reached at that point and it was pretty damn clear as well. Smelled and tasted great too. A little watery, but I'm told carbing and time will help.

That was Monday so I'll let it sit for a few more days then dry hop for 5 days and then bottle.

I'm no pro (first batch), but learned a lot from these good people here.
 
Yep the only time I would use a secondary is if I was going to add something to beer, dry hop etc.. Since I've started kegging I just dry hop in the keg using a hop bag and I pop the keg open and pull it out when I need to.

Really though as you get the hang of it siphoning off from your primary and dont pull up any trub you really wont need to do a secondary for clearer beer. If you do pull some trub up just continue siphoning to your bottling bucket, stir in your priming sugar (for bottling) put your lid on it the bucket and bottle it the following day. That will act like a secondary and help clear the trub you picked up. Just dont move around your bucket too much, you dont want to disturb the sediment.

You don't have to wait that long. The yeast that have settled in the primary will settle much faster than that in the bottling bucket. Mine settles in less than half an hour. Once I've added the priming sugar I don't want to let the yeast have any more time than necessary to eat the sugars outside the bottles. I want the beer in the bottles immediately or as soon as I can. Any yeast that does get in the bottles will settle in there pretty fast too.
 
DM3, I too am on my first batch of beer and my EPA kit's instructions were similar. 1 week in primary and 2-3 in the secondary where I'm going to dryhop.

I didn't bother taking OG reading but after 5 or so days the bubbling stopped so I left it in the primary a few more days to finish up. Total 8 days in primary.

Then I racked to my secondary, FG was reached at that point and it was pretty damn clear as well. Smelled and tasted great too. A little watery, but I'm told carbing and time will help.

That was Monday so I'll let it sit for a few more days then dry hop for 5 days and then bottle.

I'm no pro (first batch), but learned a lot from these good people here.

You wouldn't have to have moved it to secondary to dry hop even. Lots of us have started doing the dry hop right in the primary with good results. We just leave the beer long enough (usually 10 days to 2 weeks) that it is done with the ferment and the yeast's cleanup phase and then drop the hops right into the primary, wait a few days, and then bottle or keg.
 
So you ferment in the primary for three weeks then bottle, not using a secondary?

FWIW, that's what I do too. Once you get into controlling pitching rates with yeast starters and use some temperature control you can shorten the time a bit. I pitched a 1L starter into a stout and it attenuated in 3 days (1.054 - 1.014). I'll keep for about two weeks total so the yeast can clean up any byproducts. With temp control you can cold crash the fermenter for a couple days before bottling which will really clear it up and compact the cake so you lessen the amount of trub going into the bottle.


Good job on the first brew! Now go plan your next. :mug:
 
Thanks for all the help!

So at this point, I need to use a secondary since I am using the bottling bucket as my primary. The question I have is, can I use my 6 gallon glass carboy or should I go purchase a 5 gallon carboy or better bottle for the secondary? I would rather not have to, but I will if I need to!
 
Thanks for all the help!

So at this point, I need to use a secondary since I am using the bottling bucket as my primary. The question I have is, can I use my 6 gallon glass carboy or should I go purchase a 5 gallon carboy or better bottle for the secondary? I would rather not have to, but I will if I need to!

Generally, you'd want to limit the amount of head space in a secondary. It's thought that too much can oxidize the beer, but some others think that the beer will create enough CO2 to protect it. I'd probably just get another 5 gallon fermenter. Better safe then sorry. Or better yet, get another bottling bucket and you'll have 2 6.5 gallon fermenters and a bottling bucket.
 
This is the most asked and discussed topic on here, on a daily basis there are 5 or six treads on this.

This discussion has been thoroughly covered in this thread, it's become the "uber discussion" on this topic.

To Secondary or Not? John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff Weigh In .

I completely understand and I have read various threads pertaining to it. I just wanted someone to shove me in one direction. :D

Generally, you'd want to limit the amount of head space in a secondary. It's thought that too much can oxidize the beer, but some others think that the beer will create enough CO2 to protect it. I'd probably just get another 5 gallon fermenter. Better safe then sorry. Or better yet, get another bottling bucket and you'll have 2 6.5 gallon fermenters and a bottling bucket.

I will probably just pick up a 5 gallon better bottle. If there is a chance that I'll ruin this beer with a 6 gal secondary, it may be worth just spending 30 bucks on another bottle as insurance. I can always use it later if choose to secondary again.
 
The upshot, as you found out from your two calls to NB, is that there are many ways to do your fermenting and conditioning. There are plus and minuses to both. These pluses and minuses though are different for different people. What some consider a minus, others consider a plus. I'm a firm believer in following whatever process you feel comfortable with. I think this results in better beer, no matter what the procedure you use. If you are comfortable with it, you will do a better job at it. If you are comfortable with the way you make your beer, but are not totally happy with the product, THEN try something different. I'm talking TOTALLY comfortable, no little nagging, this could have been better, etc

Oh, and if you are comfortable with your process and like the results, then don't worry if someone says you are doing it wrong. That would be like someone telling you that your favorite movie, is not really your favorite movie
 
The upshot, as you found out from your two calls to NB, is that there are many ways to do your fermenting and conditioning. There are plus and minuses to both. These pluses and minuses though are different for different people. What some consider a minus, others consider a plus. I'm a firm believer in following whatever process you feel comfortable with. I think this results in better beer, no matter what the procedure you use. If you are comfortable with it, you will do a better job at it. If you are comfortable with the way you make your beer, but are not totally happy with the product, THEN try something different. I'm talking TOTALLY comfortable, no little nagging, this could have been better, etc

Oh, and if you are comfortable with your process and like the results, then don't worry if someone says you are doing it wrong. That would be like someone telling you that your favorite movie, is not really your favorite movie

Preach it!
 
So my plan of action is: Primary for 2 weeks, then transfer to secondary. Dry hop right away and keep it in the secondary for 2 more weeks before bottling. Sound reasonable?
 
So my plan of action is: Primary for 2 weeks, then transfer to secondary. Dry hop right away and keep it in the secondary for 2 more weeks before bottling. Sound reasonable?

I'd probably use a shorter period for the dry hopping, maybe a week. Some people have reported a grassy flavor from leaving the hop in the beer too long while others say they routinely leave them 2 weeks. Heck, Mac and Jack's brewing company in Washington put a bag of hops in the keg when they ship it out to the pubs. Makes me wonder how long it takes to empty a key and if it ever gets grassy?
 
Here's my take - not that I have all the answers either... Just an opinion.

I like the idea of a secondary for a few reasons. One is mostly clarity. Two is that I want to pull the beer off the trub sooner - because of reason #1. I also happen to feel that some of the more astringent flavors develop when the beer sits on the trub any longer than it really has to. I'm not a fan of really hopped up beer so I like to pull it off sooner. That's just me.

As long as you're really good with sanitation and you don't oxygenate the beer in the transfer process there's really nothing to worry about as far as bugs and germs getting in.

The reason it is recommended to transfer to secondary after 7 days (if you choose to do so) is so that the beer is still fermenting strong enough to develop enough co2 to push the oxygen out of the head space in the secondary - so a 6.5 is fine as long as you transfer early while there is still some good fermentation activity.

You're going to find a lot of people who disagree with this method simply because it's not the way THEY do it. But it's the way I do mine. If I had a beer that went 2 or 3 weeks in the primary then I would just go direct to bottling provided the yeast had attenuated and my hydrometer readings were in spec.

But - in a nutshell - if you want to pull your beer off the trub for the the purpose of clarity in the final product (and there's much debate about the need for this) just make sure you do it after 7 days and you'll be fine in a 5 or 6.5 gallon secondary. The popular opinion is to just skip the secondary all together and be careful not to stir up the trub when you go to bottle in three weeks. But for me - I'll always take the extra step for the reasons I've mentioned here.

It might not be right in some circles - but it's how and why I do it to mine and I've been very pleased with the results. Depending on the style of beer you may find reasons to do things differently from time to time. But my core belief is that the beer has what it needs after a week in primary and a finer more refined product is easier to achieve when it's transferred off the trub initially and then transferred off of the secondary accumulations again when you go to bottle - essentially taking 3 steps in the clarification process.

There are certainly additional risks when doing it this way - but I'm a sanitation freak and it doesn't scare me. Being clean and detailed in the process is the key. I'm sure there are many who don't or wont take the extra steps and consider them unnecessary. That doesn't make them wrong or me wrong.

We all just have different ways of doing things.
 
I thought you want to aerate when you go from your primary to secondary? I could be very well wrong!
 
Gotcha, so when I rack it, I don't want any splashing at all. Perhaps I should put the siphon hose inside the wort (on the secondary) when I siphon. I just ordered a 5 gallon better bottle, should come around the time I want to transfer... hopefully! I think I'll dry hop 1 week before bottling. When you dry hop, you just throw the hops in the bottle? Is three weeks bottle conditioning too much time?
 
Siphon silently. There should be no sound - or very little when you transfer to the Better Bottle. If you Star-San the entire hose it's not a problem to have it sitting in what should then be beer - and no longer wort.

3 weeks bottle conditioning isn't too long at all - but good luck waiting. I find that I'll try the first bottle after a week just to see how things are going. If I like it there is a good chance that I'll be into it within the next 4 or 5 days. It will certainly continue to mellow out and blend a little better the longer you wait while it's in the bottle. The carbonation becomes a little more refined as well. Drinking it soon will result in very gassy burps - which can be fun too.
Some bottles will be splendid several months to a year later. Some even more. Depends on the style.

As for dry hopping - I yield to others with more experience in that field. I'm not a big hop guy... So I tend to stick to low, normal hop schedules in recipes during the boil.
 
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