Help with water report - Home Brew Forums
Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Help with water report

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-15-2013, 02:51 AM   #1
pstrohs
Recipes 
 
Jan 2010
St Louis
Posts: 293
Liked 12 Times on 12 Posts



I just received my water report from Ward Labs. I have entered the numbers in the EZ Water Calculator Spreadsheet, but I still can't determine what adjustments I need to make. It looks like calcium and sulfate levels are low. I have also purchased a PH meter but haven't used it yet. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks.

pH - 9.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm - 202
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 0.34
Cations / Anions, me/L - 3.6 / 4.6

Sodium, Na - 17
Potassium, K - 2
Calcium, Ca - 18
Magnesium, Mg - 23
Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 141
Nitrate, NO3-N - 0.6 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S - 9
Chloride, Cl - 32
Carbonate, CO3 - 46
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - 91
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - 152


__________________
"Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

Keezer Build

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 04:38 AM   #2
watersr
Recipes 
 
Jul 2008
Posts: 639
Liked 47 Times on 28 Posts


Depends entirely on what you want to brew.


__________________
Burn the village, then drink the beer!

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 01:26 PM   #3
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Feb 2011
Carmel, IN
Posts: 4,088
Liked 585 Times on 452 Posts


That water looks fine in many respects, excepting that alkalinity will need to be neutralized in most brews. I suggest that you read the Water Knowledge section of the Bru'n Water website to understand more about what needs to be done with that water and why. There is no EZ answer to brewing water chemistry.
__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 03:40 PM   #4
pstrohs
Recipes 
 
Jan 2010
St Louis
Posts: 293
Liked 12 Times on 12 Posts


I mainly brew APAs and IPAs.
__________________
"Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

Keezer Build

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 05:23 PM   #5
Kaiser
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Nov 2005
Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,895
Liked 127 Times on 73 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
There is no EZ answer to brewing water chemistry.
Is than an attack on the EZ water calculator?

If yes, why is BrunWater so much better?

Kai

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 06:37 PM   #6
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Feb 2011
Carmel, IN
Posts: 4,088
Liked 585 Times on 452 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
Is than an attack on the EZ water calculator?

If yes, why is BrunWater so much better?

Kai
Bru'n Water is not necessarily always better. But it is trying to help the brewer avoid screwing up. I don't see that guidance in EZ.

Just because a bit of software code can be packaged into a seemingly simple format, does not mean that the user is better off because of it. Brewing water chemistry has a lot of IF's, AND's and THEN's (so to speak) that can easily screw up what a brewer should or should not be doing with their brewing water. There isn't a single way to screw up your brewing water, there are hundreds of ways.

What I've tried to do is include prompts, warnings, and alarms to help the user avoid the common pitfalls. Those prompts start with the initial ion inputs to help ascertain if the data makes sense. A program that doesn't include that simple ion balance check is just assuming that every water report or ion information is correct and makes sense. That is not always true.

Garbage In, Garbage Out. I'm not saying that Bru'n Water will prevent anyone from spitting garbage out, but it does try to help a user avoid that at the input and output stages.

I got a big laugh the other day when a post somewhere said that Bru'n Water didn't provide much handholding, while EZ Water did. That poster confused that fact that 'you put some numbers in and you get some numbers out' with that being a good answer. I'll admit that with several pages that need a user's inputs, Bru'n Water looks far more complicated than some programs. But every user that takes the time to understand how the program is put together and operates, reports that it is quite easy to use and logical. Its a sad fact that many people look at something for 5 seconds and say its too complicated and move on. I thought about simplifications, but those measures often reduce the utility and versatility of the product. Those may not be compromises that all brewers want to make.

To each his own. Learn, Create, Enjoy!
__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 08:39 PM   #7
sengsational
Recipes 
 
Jan 2011
Charlotte, NC
Posts: 57
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
Bru'n Water is not necessarily always better. But it is trying to help the brewer avoid screwing up. I don't see that guidance in EZ.
I'm TRYING not to screw-up, hehe.

I just got back my analysis of some primo bottled water. It came back like this:

Code:
pH - 7.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm - 37
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm - 0.06
Cations / Anions, me/L - 0.5 / 0.5

Sodium, Na - 2
Potassium, K - < 1
Calcium, Ca - 6
Magnesium, Mg - < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 - 19
Nitrate, NO3-N - 0.2 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S - 1
Chloride, Cl - 10
Carbonate, CO3 - < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - 6
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 - 5

"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
But I can't get it to balance.

On the first image, I've put "0" in for ALL of the "< 1", and it comes out to .84.

On the second image, I've (arbitrarily) put 0.6 into Mg and K and it balances, but I'm not sure that's the best approach. This is manufactured bottled water (RO water with additives to get it to be drinking water).

What am I screwing up?

--Dale--
Click image for larger version

Name:	Primo1.jpg
Views:	167
Size:	35.6 KB
ID:	96774   Click image for larger version

Name:	Primo2.jpg
Views:	167
Size:	35.9 KB
ID:	96775  

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2013, 09:20 PM   #8
ajdelange
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Recipes 
 
Aug 2010
McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 8,934
Liked 1371 Times on 1045 Posts


You're not screwing up anything. You haven't been given good enough data to cause the system to balance. You have done the 'right thing' in fiddling around with the numbers to see what it might take to get it to balance but less than one means 0.99 or 0.01 and you have no way of knowing which of those is closer to the truth.

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 03:15 AM   #9
chumpsteak
Recipes 
 
May 2011
Meridian, ID
Posts: 853
Liked 96 Times on 79 Posts


Does it really matter with that water? It appears to be almost distilled or at least RO quality. IMO even if you leave it unbalanced in the spreadsheet you will be close enough. There are plenty of other opportunities to mess things up with salt additions without spending time worrying about it balancing perfectly.
__________________
Well lucky you, the devil made you look....

 
Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 02:01 PM   #10
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Feb 2011
Carmel, IN
Posts: 4,088
Liked 585 Times on 452 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by sengsational View Post

But I can't get it to balance.

On the first image, I've put "0" in for ALL of the "< 1", and it comes out to .84.
That is the problem with water with very low mineralization, even a tiny variation in the concentrations can substantially alter that cation/anion ratio. I think that if you hover the cursor of that cell, you should see a message to the effect that you would like that ratio to be close to 1.0, but it also goes on to say that the cation and anion totals should be within 0.5 meq/L of each other. I'm betting that it easily passed that test.

As noted in that post, it only took tiny adjustments of any of those ions to get it perfect. But as Chumpsteak mentioned, 'does it really matter?' No it doesn't, its close enough.


__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks

 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
North Penn Water Authority (Montgomery Co., PA) Water Report lebshiff21 Brew Science 11 04-30-2014 10:13 PM
Richmond, VA Water Report - Can't find the Ca or Mg in water report alers22 Brew Science 2 10-29-2012 01:00 PM
Water Engineering for PA : AJs Water Primer based on Ward Lab Report mrcastellino Brew Science 4 11-22-2011 04:55 AM
Ward Water Report and Bru'n Water Sheet, now what? ToastedPenguin Brew Science 1 07-22-2011 07:58 PM
Hows my water look? dont really understand the water report ekjohns General Beer Discussion 3 03-30-2010 06:52 PM


Forum Jump