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Old 01-08-2013, 06:32 AM   #11
sawbossFogg
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Ok thanks for the toolbox graphs, sounds good. You can pour your carbonated beer through your nitro faucet if you like, but I've tried it quite a bit and its ****ed, so I'll stick with 75% nitrogen beer gas because I can afford it :-)



 
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:19 AM   #12
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Ok you've got me considering carbing at a lower level and pushing it through my nitro faucet, which begs the question; Is every pub and manufacturer throughout the world that uses beer gas a complete *******?



 
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbossFogg View Post
Ok thanks for the toolbox graphs, sounds good. You can pour your carbonated beer through your nitro faucet if you like, but I've tried it quite a bit and its ****ed, so I'll stick with 75% nitrogen beer gas because I can afford it :-)
That's fine, but you're wasting the nitro. It doesn't dissolve into solution like CO2 does and "carbonate."

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Originally Posted by sawbossFogg View Post
Ok you've got me considering carbing at a lower level and pushing it through my nitro faucet, which begs the question; Is every pub and manufacturer throughout the world that uses beer gas a complete *******?
No, but they do understand fluid dynamics and the effects of a gas dissolving into a liquid. Clearly, you're having difficulties with the concepts.
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Old 01-08-2013, 02:59 PM   #14
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Gasses being more soluble in liquids at colder temperatures is a well known fact, and an example of Henry's law. Even if you're not familiar with chemistry or Henry's law, it should be obvious just by looking at any carbonation chart. By warming things up, you're both slowing down the carbonation process, and reducing the total carbonation possible at a given pressure. I keep most of my beers at 40F and 11 psi for a carbonation level of 2.4 vol. To get that same level of carbonation at 65F I'd have to increase the pressure to 27 psi.
And...?

I'm not getting into the Nitro vs. CO2 debate but the point about warm beer carbing faster than cold beer does have merit. Note that we ALL should agree that Henry's law supports greater gas solubility at lower temps, but it is pressure dependent. The volumes of CO2 chart is based on these laws. HOWEVER, warmer beer SHOULD carb faster when the pressure has been compensated for that elevated temperature.

I'll give an example just in case I'm not clear: The chart here: http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php suggests that you can achieve 2 volumes of CO2 at:

38F and 6psi

or

65F and 20psi

Now, using the set and forget method, I support the claim that 65F @ 20psi should reach 2 volumes of CO2 faster. Why? Kinetics, Fick's Law, etc. The rate that gaseous CO2 dissolves into beer has to do with the concentration delta between the headspace and the surface of the beer. As it dissolves, that new high concentration of CO2 will diffuse away from the surface a lot faster if the beer is warm.

Of course it would require that you have a separate regulator port for carbing warm beer because you're not going to be serving off the same pressure. I have a separate tank and reg for carbing my cellared kegs. Granted, I'm not doing this for carbing speed but rather just the ability to carb beers that are on deck.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbossFogg View Post
Ok you've got me considering carbing at a lower level and pushing it through my nitro faucet, which begs the question; Is every pub and manufacturer throughout the world that uses beer gas a complete *******?
I said earlier that the majority of the creamy mouthfeel and cascading head effect was from the pressure and restrictor plate, but some of it is from the nitrogen too. If you want the benefit of the nitrogen but don't want to wait for ages for the beer to carbonate using beergas, you could buy a carb stone. I didn't mean to presume to tell you how to do things though. If you have a process that works well for you and you're happy with, use it.

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And...?
I guess I assumed that they were talking about constant pressure since they mentioned doing it at room temp in a sankey keg with a 25/75 beergas blend. Not sure why I assumed that, maybe the apfelwein I was drinking had something to do with it. I know sankey kegs can handle more than the 60psi max they're rated for, but IMO trying to carb with beergas at room temp is going to push the pressure way past the point of being dangerous. Even at 40F the pressure required for 1.8 vol of carbonation is pushing the max rating for the keg.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:09 PM   #16
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Well, there's good learning here for me thanks. Of course Nitrogen gas can dissolve into solution as logic and Jaun's graph from the engineering toolbox would suggest. The questions are a liquids capacity at given temperatures, and as Bobby points out rate and time.
My example was a Porter I bought repeatedly from Odell in Fort Collins. There I was told that the beer that was distributed for nitro service was prepared in brite tanks separate from the carbonated brite tanks (possibly simply at lower volumes of co2) and those were only available in half barrels. Since I was interested in dealing with quarter barrels and this was long before I found HBT, through many conversations and several varying attempts, including, first pushing beer too highly carbed through my nitro faucet, second flattening the beer to various degrees and pushing with beergas through the nirto faucet and lastly with success, flattening the beer and recarbing it with the beer gas. All of which seemed to happen faster at warmer temps and higher pressures. What I will try after reading this lively diatribe, is to naturally carb my sankey kegs for lesser volumes and push them with beer gas through my faucet, that is worth a try, thanks!
Nonetheless, my original post, like so many others I have subsequently found and read, was asking for opinions regarding the merit of natural vs force carbonation. Whereby we learned a bit more about German beer religion, personal pride, etc in this in this post, my answer to this question came in other posts where many folks discuss this topic and specifically talk about patience and the bit of aging time required for bottling and natural carb being the key to the matter regardless of carbonating method.

 
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by sawbossFogg View Post
Nonetheless, my original post, like so many others I have subsequently found and read, was asking for opinions regarding the merit of natural vs force carbonation.
Many people feel that natural carbonation produces smaller bubbles and a creamier mouthfeel. Many people can't detect any difference. I tend to think that there is a difference, but that it's pretty minimal.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbossFogg View Post
Ok you've got me considering carbing at a lower level and pushing it through my nitro faucet, which begs the question; Is every pub and manufacturer throughout the world that uses beer gas a complete *******?
carbonate you beer at lower levels and then use the mix to push.

 
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:16 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by neerdowell View Post
the main reason i naturally carbonate, though, is to save my keezer space for my carbonated kegs. I can naturally carbonate while the keezer is full and the c02 expenditure to force carbonate is greater at higher temperatures.
+1

 
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawbossFogg View Post
Well, there's good learning here for me thanks. Of course Nitrogen gas can dissolve into solution as logic and Jaun's graph from the engineering toolbox would suggest.
You'll find that N2 is considered insoluble (hard to dissolve) into beer and is thus used for high pressure draft systems for overcoming resistance in long haul lines because it won't affect carb volume like using standard CO2 in these situations.

Even the graph covers that. N2 doesn't carbonate beer at any of the pressures used to dispense it.


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