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Old 12-20-2012, 12:18 AM   #21
Golddiggie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calder View Post
This is the first time I have ever hear Crystal has sufficient enzymes to convert (actually, any enzymes at all). I know there is a lot of starches in crystal that need to be mashed to get the most from crystal. Where did you find out crystal can self convert?
It's been posted on the boards. The currently available malts are modified enough to not be an issue to the extent that they were years ago. While I wouldn't go with a recipe that has less than 75-80% base malt, you can brew with confidence up to about those percentages. I've easily hit within a yeast's listed attenuation range with 20% (or up to 25%) non-base malts (different malts, mostly crystals and other roasted/toasted malts). So to assume that you'll miss the mark by more than a few points due to having caramel/crystal type malts in the recipe is false. More likely, something else in the brewing/fermenting process accounted for the poor attenuation of the yeast. There's enough factors there that could have been the cause.

Keep in mind, the OP was put up 3 days ago... Far too soon to see what the FG is. But, I would expect to have attenuation within the range of the yeast.

BTW, you cannot get more than 100% attenuation. Simply not possible. How can you have yeast eat more than 100% of the sugars available?? Adding sugar to a brew increases the OG and can result in a lower FG due to how much of the simple sugar is consumed (80-100%).
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:24 AM   #22
Calder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golddiggie View Post
BTW, you cannot get more than 100% attenuation. Simply not possible. How can you have yeast eat more than 100% of the sugars available??
Think wine or cider. They always end up below 1.000, often closer to 0.990, resulting in more than 100% apparent attenuation. Agreed, you cannot get more than 100% real attenuation, but that is not what we measure.

 
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calder View Post
Think wine or cider. They always end up below 1.000, often closer to 0.990, resulting in more than 100% apparent attenuation. Agreed, you cannot get more than 100% real attenuation, but that is not what we measure.
Going below 1.000 isn't over 100% attenuation due to what's fermenting. It just means the amount of alcohol makes the gravity lower than water. Also, the 'always end up below 1.000' statement is 100% false. I've made batches of mead and it's NOT difficult to have it finish above 1.000. IF you know what you're doing that is. Sure, formulate a must that's good for 12% ABV and use a yeast that will go to 16% or above and it WILL go below 1.000. Has nothing to do with getting higher than 100% attenuation.

Have you even made a wine or cider yet?
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Hopping Tango Brewery

跟猴子比丟屎 ・ Gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se

On Tap: Caramel Ale, Mocha Porter II, MO SMaSH IPA
Waiting/Carbonating: 12.5% Wee Honey II, 8.9% Old Ale, English Brown Ale, Lickah ESB, Mocha Porter II
Fermenting
K1:
K2: Epic mead
K3: TripSix
On Deck: Caramel Ale
Aging:mead
Mead [bottled]:Oaked Wildflower Traditional, Mocha Madness, Blackberry Melomel, maple wine

 
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golddiggie View Post
Going below 1.000 isn't over 100% attenuation due to what's fermenting. It just means the amount of alcohol makes the gravity lower than water. Also, the 'always end up below 1.000' statement is 100% false. I've made batches of mead and it's NOT difficult to have it finish above 1.000. IF you know what you're doing that is. Sure, formulate a must that's good for 12% ABV and use a yeast that will go to 16% or above and it WILL go below 1.000. Has nothing to do with getting higher than 100% attenuation.

Have you even made a wine or cider yet?
How do we measure attenuation?

Going from 1.060 to 1.015 = 75% apparent attenuation.

Going from 1.060 to 1.000 = 100% apparent attenuation.

Going from 1.060 to 0.994 = 110% apparent attenuation.

Again, I agree you physically can't get more than 100% real attenuation, but we measure apparent attenuation, and if you check my posts, you will see I use the word 'apparent' every time I talk about attenuation.

Yes I have made plenty of cider and wine. Personally I like it dry, so have never planned to make a sweet brew. I think the highest I have ever had with a wine of cider is 1.000.

Read the posts before you start responding.

 
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:48 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calder View Post
How do we measure attenuation?

Going from 1.060 to 1.015 = 75% apparent attenuation.

Going from 1.060 to 1.000 = 100% apparent attenuation.

Going from 1.060 to 0.994 = 110% apparent attenuation.

Again, I agree you physically can't get more than 100% real attenuation, but we measure apparent attenuation, and if you check my posts, you will see I use the word 'apparent' every time I talk about attenuation.

Yes I have made plenty of cider and wine. Personally I like it dry, so have never planned to make a sweet brew. I think the highest I have ever had with a wine of cider is 1.000.

Read the posts before you start responding.
'apparent attenuation' is fine for BEER, but [IMO/IME] worthless when it comes to things like mead.

Oh, and how many fingers am I holding up??

g'night b's...
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Hopping Tango Brewery

跟猴子比丟屎 ・ Gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se

On Tap: Caramel Ale, Mocha Porter II, MO SMaSH IPA
Waiting/Carbonating: 12.5% Wee Honey II, 8.9% Old Ale, English Brown Ale, Lickah ESB, Mocha Porter II
Fermenting
K1:
K2: Epic mead
K3: TripSix
On Deck: Caramel Ale
Aging:mead
Mead [bottled]:Oaked Wildflower Traditional, Mocha Madness, Blackberry Melomel, maple wine

 
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:49 AM   #26
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Deleted, somebody already covered it.

 
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:04 PM   #27
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Update:

I apologize to those interested for not initially posting more information. I did use a Wyeast "smack pack" dated Oct 2011. I did not do a stepped starter. I did a one liter starter approximately 72 hours prior to pitching. I think the yeast had consumed most of the sugars in the starter wort because at pitching, the airlock had slowed down on bubbling. The starter wort was very light colored and full of tiny bubbles like any other successful starter. I fermented at 62 degrees and ended with 1.010 FG. OG was 1.043, so my apparent attenuation was 76% and within the Attenuation range listed by Wyeast Labs of 73-77%. FG sample tasted very good and what I was looking for in this beer. BTW, this is my first attempt at a Chocolate Ale. It went into secondary on top of 4 oz cocoa nibs. Taste at bottling was quite good with a very slight hint of chocolate.
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