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Old 12-07-2012, 05:20 PM   #21
argoodin
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Agreed, as I have welded these fittings before and it is extremely difficult if not impossible to get to the underside of the coupling on the interior of the keg. Personally, I insert a pipe plug into the fitting to keep the threads in good shape and only insert the fitting far enough into the keg to get a good joint. I haven't found a reason to shove the fitting any farther in than that and it leaves some room to get the torch in on the underside in the interior of the keg.

I agree with using sockets wherever possible.

I guess that I should take a step back and clarify my position on this...back gassing has its place and its use. It may be preferable in some situations in order to achieve a sanitary weld. Is it absolutely necessary, no.

AG

 
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:08 PM   #22
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argoodin,

I'm sorry but whoever you worked for had the FDA in their pocket.

If you were welding thin walled stainless there's no way you only welded with shielding on the weld side and upheld the integrity of stainless steels corrosion resistance on the back side of the weld.
Even the discoloration from heat tint on stainless means that stainless steels corrosion resistance is compromised in that area. Therefore it should be removed mechanically or chemically.

The only way "back gassing" is not necessary is if the material was thick enough to absorb the heat, and you were not doing full penetration welds.

By the way, have you ever pipe or tube welded to code standards requiring inspection?
Purging the inside of the pipe or tube with Argon while welding is absolutely required. Period!

Protecting the backside of thin walled stainless with Argon is standard procedure when welding, and if not, it's being done half-assed.
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Old 12-07-2012, 06:47 PM   #23
METALGUY
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As far as sanitation goes, the keggles will be at a high enough temp for enough time to kill any bacteria or such right?

I know this debate is about purity and optimum scenarios for sanitary welding. Clean tig welding with an atmosphere purged of oxygen is the only way to go. I cant think of any reason why you would not take the time to purge/sheild both sides of a thin walled vessel.

However... Its not a Fermentation vessel.

Im just wondering if sugaring and porosity really pose a considerable threat in the big scheme of things. can you still have a contamination threat after cleaning and boiling the keggle?

 
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Old 12-07-2012, 07:32 PM   #24
argoodin
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As far as I can see I still have both the left and right butt cheeks.

In response to the testing, no I have not. Structural, yes but stainless sanitary no. I am sure that there are certainly more qualified people out there in the field of sanitary stainless welding than I am. What I can speak to and have been speaking to is the fact, not the theory, that I personally have welded plenty of stainless and have never had issues with the corrosion, pitting, etc. that is associated with bad welds. Many of my welds were in locations subjected to a constant regiment of chlorine and other caustic sanitizers. Am I an expert, no. Do I have more experience than people who read about what should and should not be done, yes.

Again, back gassing has its place but is it absolutely necessary, no. I agree with the last poster in terms of the use of the welds in a high temp environment. Are we making plutonium powered homebrew rigs that must meet the latest FDA, USDA, EPA, and OSHA standards, no. There is a point where "knowledge" outweighs reason, experience, and skill. The reason for not back gassing, particularly in large vessels, cost. Pipe and tube is a little different environment in that regard and yes, I am aware that there are instances where this procedure is required to be and should be used. I am pretty sure that I acknowledged that in a prior post.

I just keep reading all of these multiple posts with people acting like you are going to kill the baby Jesus if you don't back gas your welds and you should treat any welder/fabricator that doesn't like they just fell off the turnip truck. It annoys and frankly frightens me a little bit.

 
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:19 AM   #25
dmfa200
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by METALGUY View Post
As far as sanitation goes, the keggles will be at a high enough temp for enough time to kill any bacteria or such right?

I know this debate is about purity and optimum scenarios for sanitary welding. Clean tig welding with an atmosphere purged of oxygen is the only way to go. I cant think of any reason why you would not take the time to purge/sheild both sides of a thin walled vessel.

However... Its not a Fermentation vessel.

Im just wondering if sugaring and porosity really pose a considerable threat in the big scheme of things. can you still have a contamination threat after cleaning and boiling the keggle?
In the case of hot side brewing it's not important to have everything sanitary, just clean.
Sugaring results from poor welding procedure, and can trap debris making the area hard to keep clean. Stainless is no longer stainless in that area, and it's ugly.
Porosity can happen to any welder, but a good welder keeps flaws in his welds to a bare minimum and fixes his mistakes.
It's not so much a sanitation issue, as it is pride in workmanship.
Me personally, don't do half-assed.

When I weld for someone I try to surpass their expectations and usually do.
I'd rather have someone ecstatic over my work, than just thankful.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:36 AM   #26
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Is there a compelling reason not to go weld less? I also have 3 keg getting ready for conversion. Tops are off.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:30 PM   #27
JFlowers1300
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^^^This is exactly what I'm wondering at this point. With all the time I've already put into cutting, drilling and polishing up my kegs and the fact that I am going to be putting much more time and money into completing my brewery as a whole, an extra $15-$20 a weld doesn't seem like a high price to pay to ensure that I get good welds. I understand from the previous posts that there may be people out there who can weld without back flushing with argon, but it seems to me that I am taking a much larger risk accepting this and possibly getting a hack job than finding someone who will take the time to do a more detailed and albeit safer job with back flushing (safer in the sense that sugaring is less likely to happen when back flushing).

 
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:25 PM   #28
METALGUY
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Dude, you're over thinking things. Just take it to a professional and pay them to weld it for you. You're already saving money by using keggles.

 
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:38 PM   #29
Bobby_M
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He's not overthinking it at all. Everyone that comes here to post pictures in a thread titled something like "do these welds look OK?" took a "professional's" word for it that they knew how to properly weld stainless. There's nothing like toiling for months trying to find some kegs, cleaning them up and then having some hack screw them up completely and then act like you should do jumping jacks over the work.

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Old 12-08-2012, 08:44 PM   #30
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Easy way to find a good welder is asking local breweries, dairies and food processing plants who did their work.
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