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Old 12-05-2012, 03:54 PM   #1
Arrheinous
 
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As I understand it, DME and LME are just boiled down mashes of grains. Usually these are added after steeping in extract brewing when the temperature is too high for conversion.

If the ME is added before or shortly after steeping can conversion occur if you want to tone down the malt profile?

 
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:25 PM   #2
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you steep the grains first,or do your partial mash first in water heated to 150-160F. Then add extract,not before.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:32 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrheinous View Post
As I understand it, DME and LME are just boiled down mashes of grains. Usually these are added after steeping in extract brewing when the temperature is too high for conversion.
This is not quite how it's done. Boiling down the extract with heat would promote unwanted carmelization. They boil the extract by putting the wort in a vacuum. To make DME, they spray the wort until the dry particles fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrheinous View Post
If the ME is added before or shortly after steeping can conversion occur if you want to tone down the malt profile?
To convert the sugars into fermentables, you need enzymes to hydrolise starches. These enzymes occur naturally in germinating grain. Maltsters germinate barley and then dry them out so that they don't grow. After that, they might kiln or roast the barley. This usually denatures nearly all of the enzymes.

Extract lacks this enzyme. You wouldn't be able to further break down the maltose without other enzymes, such as that found in Beano.

Typically, you want to use extract that has the lightest color available. The malt character of these extracts are subtle enough to produce lite lagers and cream ales. If you want something with even less malt character, you can substitute corn sugar, sucrose, honey, rice syrup solids, or other adjuncts. These may change the character of your beer by making it drying and imparting other flavors.

A common recommendation, from both books and this community, is to use light or extra light extract in almost all extract brews. This allows you to control both the color and flavor of your beer. Furthermore, extract is ready to go. You only need to pasteurize it. This means that you can add it at or near the end of your boil and prevent the boil from darkening the beer.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:33 PM   #4
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Use common sense. Mashing extract would have no real purpose. It has already been converted from starch to sugar and then Boiled. It also lacks the required enzymes for further conversion, if possible.

 
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:58 PM   #5
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Well, with the emzymes from a base malt you could probably break the remaining complex sugars down some more. But the question is, would you really want to?

 
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:05 PM   #6
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I don't think a base malt could break down the long chain sugars in extract any further. Since it converts starches to simole,short chain sugar molecules,I don't think it could happen. For this reason,I use plain light DME when adding to canned LME or jugged. The DME is great in a partial boil for hop additions,as it idoesn't seem to be prone to mailard reactions as readilly as LME. Either can be added at flame out as a late addition,stirred,coverd & steeped a few minutes to pasteurize. Which happens about 162F in a few seconds. A few to 15 minutes works great for me. I've also found that putting the sacks of late hop additions (aroma) back in to steep with it is great for improving aroma a bit with said late hop addition.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkleJon View Post
Well, with the emzymes from a base malt you could probably break the remaining complex sugars down some more. But the question is, would you really want to?
But how would the enzymes be active after the extract is processed? Just like once you boil your wort, you denature the enzymes, the same would be true of extract.

"Mashing" extract would only reduce the amount of sugars in the final product, as the extract's sugars good very well stick to the grain and give a lower amount of sugars in the wort than you started with. There wouldn't be enzymatic activity, any more than adding honey to the mash would give enzymatic activity. The conversion of starches to sugars happens due to enzymes.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:11 PM   #8
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All true,once boiled the enzymes are done. Period. Didn't hurt to ask though. You don't learn if you don't know & don't ask.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:31 PM   #9
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Oh gosh I forgot about the enzymes. I was assuming that there was some modest contribution from the complex sugars being hydrolyzed at elevated temperatures.

I've used the very light dry malt extract for everything once I learned about how you get darker colors. I wasn't sure if you went too light then people start bleaching the grains or what. Used the very light DME and a low L Crystal on my pumpkin ale and much of the brown-orange color from the roasted pumpkin was allowed to shine through in the end-product.

Moving out of extract brewing soon enough (when I find the time between this and that and the other thing ). This question was just sort of a way to bridge the gap, conceptually, from extract to all-grain and transition from thinking about malt from the perspective I already have.

 
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrheinous View Post
Oh gosh I forgot about the enzymes. I was assuming that there was some modest contribution from the complex sugars being hydrolyzed at elevated temperatures.

I've used the very light dry malt extract for everything once I learned about how you get darker colors. I wasn't sure if you went too light then people start bleaching the grains or what. Used the very light DME and a low L Crystal on my pumpkin ale and much of the brown-orange color from the roasted pumpkin was allowed to shine through in the end-product.

Moving out of extract brewing soon enough (when I find the time between this and that and the other thing ). This question was just sort of a way to bridge the gap, conceptually, from extract to all-grain and transition from thinking about malt from the perspective I already have.
The grain isn't bleached- you just use light colored grain to make light colored beers.

Partial mashing is a great way to bridge the gap between extract and all-grain and it makes awesome beers as well.

We can help you with partial mashing for your next batch. It's super easy to do, and just involves using a bit of base malt instead of some of the extract.
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