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Old 11-26-2012, 04:25 PM   #11
mabrungard
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What I find is that once a drinker has been introduced to the defect that chlorophenol presents, they are more aware and sensitive to its presence. Then they have little choice to avoid it in their beers. I've been around drinkers that were merrily enjoying a beer while I'm aware of chlorophenol in that beer. Sometimes I mention, but at lot of times I just keep it to myself and not harsh their mellow.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:42 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne-R View Post
Iím going to have to study probability....
I believe every child in school should be forced to study it. It is amazing how brazen politicians, government and the media are in relying on the innumeracy of the public to mislead them. I can't have an intelligent conversation with most people about many of the country's most pressing issues because they don't understand the difference between mean, mode, and median or that correlation doesn't imply causation. Of course given that most seem to be functionally illiterate I guess it's a bit much to expect that they could be numerate.

And then understanding some of this stuff helps you understand beer.

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Old 11-26-2012, 06:00 PM   #13
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Interesting observation about the perception of phenol, Martin. I didnít know my beer was astringent until, on a whim, I used RO sparge. After that it was hard to drink the old ones, and the tapwater here uses ozonation.

I have done a lot of wine tasting, I guess I didnít know it was a fault at low levels. It doesnít have to be band-aids to be off. I suppose thereís a lot of different-tasting phenols in beer.

Much like phenols, Iím beginning to see Gaussian distribution everywhere. They mock me. When thereís something I donít understand, I head to the library.

 
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:12 PM   #14
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Been down this road. Three batches of band-aid juice, a $50 filter, and quite a few campden tablets later, I am back to mineralizing purchased RO water.

By way of a disclaimer, we live in a coastal area with brackish swamps all around us. The water we start with is problematic to begin with. I know that many folks have great success with campden tabs. Regrettably, I did not.

Side note: during my research, I did discover that is such a thing as too much campden. It can adversely affect fermentation at high levels (like 2 tablets for 5 gallons). Stick with the recommended dosage and you will be fine. Beware of assuming that if a little is good, a lot must be great!

 
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne-R View Post
I have done a lot of wine tasting, I guess I didnít know it was a fault at low levels. It doesnít have to be band-aids to be off. I suppose thereís a lot of different-tasting phenols in beer.
I think there may be some confusion between phenols and chlorphenolics here. Phenols taste hot, astringent, grainy, dry, clovelike, spicy... No, they are not a fault in wines (at least red ones). I used to patronize a wine bar called The Tannin Level (you went down steps to get into the place). Chlorphenolics have a plasticlike smell and taste. Quite different from unchlorinated phenolics. If you ever heated or machined polystyrene - that's the smell. Almost every time I encounter it in judging I think the glass is cracked (even though the glasses we use in competition do not emit that odor when broken). I've also heard it described as bandaid like. Though I have never smelled that particular flavor I don't doubt it exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne-R View Post
Much like phenols, Iím beginning to see Gaussian distribution everywhere.
That's because it is everywhere. Whenever a surprisingly few random variables are added together the sum has Gaussian characteristics. The old IBM Fortran implementation generated Gaussian random variables by adding 13 uniformly distributed random variables. If you add as few as 3 and plot the distribution function it is amazingly close to the Gaussian. That's why its other name is the Normal distribution.

 
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Old 11-26-2012, 06:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
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It can adversely affect fermentation at high levels (like 2 tablets for 5 gallons).
That's 8 times too much for even water with chloramine at 3 mg/L (which is more than most supplies). Vintners use 1 tablet per gallon to inactivate wild yeast.

 
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
I think there may be some confusion between phenols and chlorphenolics here.
Perhaps I wasnít clear. Wine has tannins, astringent phenols. Tannins are often described as chewing on grape skins. You get used to it, itís not a fault.

Beer has tannins, at a much lower level and should kept as low as possible. If they are noticeable it is a fault for most styles. It is acceptable for Rauchbier and probably some Belgians.

Chlorophenols, at any level, are death to beer. It always comes from chlorine contamination combining with the naturally occuring phenols. The chlorine can come from the water as free chlorine or chloramine. Bleach or other cleaners can cause it.

To vindicate myself from AJ scurrilously accusing me of being confused, Iíd like to point out that chlorophenol is a member of the phenol family and what I said in #13 is correct, though apparently confusing.

 
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:42 PM   #18
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I picked up some campden tabs today, 550mg per tab, 100 count for 2 bucks. Going to use em later tonight when I brew. Thanks everyone! Also, I find the rest of the dialogue here quite interesting, so thanks for that too!
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Old 11-26-2012, 09:28 PM   #19
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There's an interesting discussion of required amounts of K-meta and Na-meta here:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/con...minate-163230/

 
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