Coldbreak Brewing Giveaway - Open to All!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Recipes/Ingredients > Yeast starts vs not
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-23-2012, 04:14 PM   #1
dave8fire
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
dave8fire's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: chuckery, ohio
Posts: 9
Default Yeast starts vs not

Being new to the whole brewing thing, there is so much to read about all aspects of brewing and sometimes there is conflicting information, so what are the pros and cons of making a yeast starter.

thanks

newbe dave


dave8fire is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 05:47 PM   #2
bobbrews
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sierra, Nevada
Posts: 4,020
Liked 423 Times on 341 Posts
Likes Given: 72

Default

It is typically recommended to make a liquid yeast starter for the higher than normal abv% beers. I would go so far as to say it's essential for any ale above 1.064 OG. Some people decide to pitch two packets of dry yeast. And while that may work, I would personally consider it to be a hack move that affects the health/quality/complexity of the final product... Especially if you're desiring a bit more character from the malt and the yeast.


bobbrews is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 05:58 PM   #3
Golddiggie
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Golddiggie's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Between here and there, and everywhere
Posts: 12,063
Liked 483 Times on 423 Posts
Likes Given: 266

Default

If you use liquid yeast in your brews, then you should be making starters for them. If your batch OG is above 1.030, it will benefit from the use of a starter. Considering the cost difference between making a starter, and pitching another packet/vial of liquid yeast, it makes even more sense to use a starter. Get/make a stirplate and you can make smaller starters, that are done faster. Look at what yeastcalc.com tells you for a starter size for your batch. Be sure to also enter in the yeast manufacture date on the site. I use this site these days because it helps me to figure out what size starters to make with either a two, or three, step schedule. I can get far more yeast cells, to pitch, with two small steps than one huge step.

There are plenty of pro's for using/making starters. The ONLY con I can think of is you need to plan your batch a bit better. If you're doing a single starter step, with fairly fresh yeast (under 2-3 months old), and you're using a stirplate, you can make the starter about 2-3 days before your brew day. You let it go on the stirplate for 12-24 hours, then cold crash for 24+ hours so that you can decant the spent starter and pitch just the yeast slurry.

Having more viable yeast cells going into the wort (your batch of beer) means you'll have a shorter lag phase, for one thing. This is a good thing. I typically have activity in under 12 hours from pitching my slurry. Many times, it's VERY active by that time.

One thing to keep in mind. With the stirplate, or even without one, you do NOT want to use an airlock on your starter (flask or something else). You NEED to have a gas exchange happening. With a stirplate, you get CO2 out and air in, constantly (which gives you the faster time to finish). You use either one of the foam stoppers, or a sanitized piece of aluminum foil over the top. You can use foil on mason jar for starters too.

Personally, I prefer to use my flasks for starters. IF you go that route, get at least a 2L flask. I find I'm using my 3L flask most often. IMO, a 1L flask is nigh on useless for 5 gallon batches of beer. Unless you want to always make at least a two step starter (for normal OG batches, or those under 1.060).
__________________
Hopping Tango Brewery

跟猴子比丟屎 ・ Gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se

On Tap: Caramel Ale, Mocha Porter II, MO SMaSH IPA
Waiting/Carbonating: 12.5% Wee Honey II, 8.9% Old Ale, English Brown Ale, Lickah ESB, Mocha Porter II
Fermenting
K1:
K2: Epic mead
K3: TripSix
On Deck: Caramel Ale
Aging:mead
Mead [bottled]:Oaked Wildflower Traditional, Mocha Madness, Blackberry Melomel, maple wine
Golddiggie is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:13 PM   #4
ayoungrad
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,102
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
Some people decide to pitch two packets of dry yeast. And while that may work, I would personally consider it to be a hack move that affects the health/quality/complexity of the final product... Especially if you're desiring a bit more character from the malt and the yeast.
Are you saying this with the assumption that you would be over-pitching by adding more dry yeast?

Some yeast calculators give estimates for the amount of dry yeast, just as they give recommendations for the size for starters with dry yeasts. I have always taken this to mean that, with proper hydration, following the dry yeast recommendations would land me in the ballpark for proper pitching rates.

Have you had a different experience with this?

Otherwise I agree with all else that was said.
ayoungrad is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:17 PM   #5
bobbrews
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Sierra, Nevada
Posts: 4,020
Liked 423 Times on 341 Posts
Likes Given: 72

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ayoungrad View Post
Are you saying this with the assumption that you would be over-pitching by adding more dry yeast?
No.
bobbrews is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:23 PM   #6
WoodlandBrew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WoodlandBrew's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Malden, MA
Posts: 2,188
Liked 225 Times on 198 Posts
Likes Given: 59

Default

A thread about starters and no one has said Mr. Malty? I'll say it: Consult Mr. Malty.
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

For a good write up on pitch rates take a look at the one on the WYeast website:
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm
__________________
The 2nd edition is now available: Brewing Engineering
Woodland Brewing Research Blog Applied Science for Better Beer.
WoodlandBrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:24 PM   #7
ayoungrad
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,102
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbrews View Post
No.
Experience then?

Just looking to learn something new. I have never heard it said that increasing dry yeast pitching rates has a detrimental affect on the beer.

Or are you saying that you feel dry yeast provides less character than liquid yeast?

Again, just asking to learn.
ayoungrad is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:29 PM   #8
Golddiggie
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Golddiggie's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Between here and there, and everywhere
Posts: 12,063
Liked 483 Times on 423 Posts
Likes Given: 266

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodlandBrew View Post
A thread about starters and no one has said Mr. Malty? I'll say it: Consult Mr. Malty.
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

For a good write up on pitch rates take a look at the one on the WYeast website:
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm
Mr. Malty is ok for a SINGLE step starter. IF that's all you need, great. If you don't want to (or cannot) make a single [large] starter, you can make two, or three, much smaller starters and get the same (or more) yeast cells to pitch.

I also don't have any love for the Wyeast tool. IMO, it sucks worst of all. They make great yeast, but that tool is nigh on useless (for me at least).

The utility on the yeastcalc does everything I need it to. Mr. Malty can help you with dry yeast and slurry calculations. I don't need either of those.
__________________
Hopping Tango Brewery

跟猴子比丟屎 ・ Gun HOE-tze bee DIO-se

On Tap: Caramel Ale, Mocha Porter II, MO SMaSH IPA
Waiting/Carbonating: 12.5% Wee Honey II, 8.9% Old Ale, English Brown Ale, Lickah ESB, Mocha Porter II
Fermenting
K1:
K2: Epic mead
K3: TripSix
On Deck: Caramel Ale
Aging:mead
Mead [bottled]:Oaked Wildflower Traditional, Mocha Madness, Blackberry Melomel, maple wine
Golddiggie is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:30 PM   #9
WoodlandBrew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WoodlandBrew's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Malden, MA
Posts: 2,188
Liked 225 Times on 198 Posts
Likes Given: 59

Default

Over pitching means that there will be less cell divisions by the time the fermentation completes. When the cells divide they produce some of their characteristic flavors. Whether two packs of dry yeast is over pitching depends on how much beer you are making, but you would need to be making about 10 gallons of a 1.060 gravity beer for it to be appropriate.
__________________
The 2nd edition is now available: Brewing Engineering
Woodland Brewing Research Blog Applied Science for Better Beer.
WoodlandBrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 06:46 PM   #10
ayoungrad
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,102
Liked 9 Times on 9 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodlandBrew View Post
Over pitching means that there will be less cell divisions by the time the fermentation completes. When the cells divide they produce some of their characteristic flavors. Whether two packs of dry yeast is over pitching depends on how much beer you are making, but you would need to be making about 10 gallons of a 1.060 gravity beer for it to be appropriate.
I with you on all of that.

I asked bobbrews if he was assuming 2 packets would be over-pitching and he said no.

So I'm curious why he thinks simply increasing the amount of dry yeast will result in a suboptimal beer. Or if he thinks that dry yeast inherently limits the beer compared with liquid yeast.


ayoungrad is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hop Starts Sale! ArrowheadHops Hops Growing 2 05-14-2012 03:14 AM
Need an ingredient that starts with 'U' phoenixs4r Recipes/Ingredients 21 05-03-2012 08:34 PM
And it starts... baker0408 Bottling/Kegging 2 01-11-2009 04:38 PM
A beer before it starts summersolstice General Chit Chat 7 06-17-2008 09:51 PM


Forum Jump

Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS