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Old 10-23-2012, 05:22 PM   #11
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the ratio of the carmelized sugars, dextrines, lactose, and maltose is going to be changed by the ration of the specialty malts.

That change in ration carries through to the runoff. What does not result in the sparge is not because it did not convert, but rather because it was not rinsed free from the grain.

Yes, in the same nature you really are just steeping, but steeping grains do not result 100% in the boil as the sugars adhere to the kernel.

That "some" that you speak of continues to remain in ratio with the rest.


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Old 10-23-2012, 05:38 PM   #12
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That just isn't true. The sugar is going to wash out of crystal. It just is. You don't have to do anything special. You can throw uncrushed base grain in with crushed crystal. You will get essentially zero efficiency from your base grain and 100% efficiency from they crystal.

And, your loss ratio from the tun is not the same as your net efficiency. It should be only a small portion - eg a cup out of 7 gallons. Instead of 100% efficiency from your crystal, you might get 95%.


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Old 10-23-2012, 05:42 PM   #13
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so if I took 5 lbs of 2-row and converted it and sparged I get 70% eff evident in PPG. What you say says that I would get 100% eff if I did the same with specialty grain.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:02 PM   #14
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@cockybiz - it's not about percentage because the weights of extract and grains to reproduce what was had from the extract in a recipe will be different. And with a difference in weight you have a difference in percentages. I started with extract and have now been doing all grain for a year and have converted my recipes. I keep the same amount of specialty malts and only make up for the extract with grains and my beers have all been fine.


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Old 10-24-2012, 03:22 PM   #15
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Thanks everyone for the feedback so far. Based on what folks have said thus far I think the best way is to think about it is what amount of a specialty grain contributes what types of flavors you are looking for. If I have a extract recipe already made that I like then it would be best to just convert the extract to a base grain and leave the specialty.

To make a new extract recipe it would almost make sense to start by making an AG recipe and converting it since the folks at briess and other companies are probably not trying to determine the flavor contributions of their grains using extract as their base (although I suppose they could be). So basically to create a new extract recipe one might create an AG recipe with 80 or 85%(?) eff and determine the specialty grain amounts to hit the percentage listed in their spec sheets then convert the base malts to extract while leaving the specialty grains (assuming none of them need to be mashed).

Or I'm just over thinking it as always
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:29 PM   #16
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I am sure they have been fine, but the physics behind it does not change. I answered the question that was asked.

To believe that you can put specialty grains in a mash and get 100% in the pot, while you only get 65% from the base grain isn't logical. The problem is the adhesion of the sugars to the kernel. The same principles of adhesion is what makes things sticky. All of the sugars, including those from the specialty grains get sticky when they get wet.

I understand that you are not trying to convert the sugars in the specialty grains-- however the sugars in 2-row are going to be fully converted in a hour's mash. The problem is getting those sugar molecules to come free from the surfaces inside the mash tun to which they cling. The maltose and the other complex sugars from the specialty grains remain homogeneous in solution. Likewise, they will remain a loss in the system in a homogeneous ratio as well.
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:40 PM   #17
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"I am sure they have been fine, but the physics behind it does not change. "

Actually, it certainly does. The physics of simple sugars dissolving in water are dramatically different than enzymes in solution interacting with big starches bound to other materials.
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Old 10-24-2012, 03:50 PM   #18
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...and an iodine test will provide proof that you no longer have starches. There is good evidence that starches are all broken into sugars with as little as 20 minutes into the mash.

Once again we are talking sugars vs sugars. When my sparging techniques get 90% and my neighbor gets 65% it is not because of enzymatic activity but the efficiency of the sparge. Did you bother reading anything more than the first line of my previous post?
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:10 PM   #19
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An iodine test will only show that there are no starches in solution, not that you have 100% conversion of the starches in the grain.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:38 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockybitz View Post
When my sparging techniques get 90% and my neighbor gets 65% it is not because of enzymatic activity but the efficiency of the sparge.
Right. Starches in the kernel... that don't exist because they are going to be converted.


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