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Old 10-06-2012, 02:29 PM   #41
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OK... as they say the proof is in the pudding. In this case its beer. My only concern is for the poor Muslim you steeped with your grains... "into a Muslim bag ".
The beer will likely be drinkable... I have a muslin bag I'll send you for free if you want to try it again.


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Old 10-06-2012, 05:09 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffjjpkiser1 View Post
Since I'm not in the habit of someone calling me or my brethren the boogeyman, I got up this morning, inspected by East Coast IPA fermenting away, and grabbed the bible or Homebrew scripture if you prefer.

It's not often I have to go Papazian on someone but here is goes.

Page 31 of The Home Brewer's Companion/The Essential Handbook under the sub-heading
"Using specialty malts without Mashing"
and I quote => For the ideal extraction of the favorable qualities of any malt, the crushed grain should never be brought to a boil. Some recipes and procedures guide beginning brewers to bring the specialty malts just to a boil and quickly remove them from the heat source. This is a simple procedure designed to encourage their use by beginning brewers. For those who desire to improve the quality of their beers with a small additional investment in time and attention, the grains should NEVER be steeped in water who temperature exceeds 170 degrees F (77 degrees C). The extraction of UNDESIRABLE TANNIN and ASTRINGENT characters is minimized with a lower-temperature steep" end quote

Let's remember one thing here, professional brewing in big vessels and homebrewing are two different things.

Have fun brewing and open a beer and enjoy!
I think you completely missed my point. The point being that the bolded part of your quote, despite being written in a 10-30 year old book (depending on edition), is nice in theory but may not be the case in practice.
Even before you "went Papazian" on me (?) I was well aware of what ol' Charlie had said, as well as many other sources of the same information. Thus calling the tannin thing a "boogeyman" (yeah, I was calling the tannins boogeymen, not you and your buddies).
IMPE, I have yet to extract tannins from steeping grains. I've steeped for well over 30 mins. I've steeped well over 170. I've steeped in way "too much" (according to the myths) water. I've steeped in far "too little" water. I've steeped in tap water (quite hard and alkaline here). I've steeped with distilled or r/o water. Get the point yet? Regardless of what a book may have said, in practice, I say it's not bloody likely.
Conversely, and stop me if I said this before , in my all grain brews I check mash pH to ensure it's under ~6 (since a pH much higher can extract tannins). One time, I had a high pH (~6.7, 6.8, something like that), and coincidentally, that was the one batch I made that had tannins. My temps and volumes were pretty much spot on in that batch, it was a beer I've made before, and the ingredients came from the same source. The one variable that was different was the high pH.
I, too, learned a lot from Charlie P's book. But one of the things I've also learned is that a lot of the things that guys like Papazian and Palmer said back in the day have since been proven wrong in practice. Palmer continues to update (and omit things from) How to Brew, and himself has admitted that some of the information in that first issue (the online one everyone swears by) is quite dated. Thanks for "going Papazian", because that was exactly my point in my earlier post; Just because someone said it (many years ago in this case), doesn't make it the case in practice.

Brew strong and trust in your experience young grasshopper!


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can i drink this? I mean. Im gunna. But is it fine?
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it's not a barley wine. it's an ale.
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Originally Posted by bottlebomber View Post
Have you seen the price of ketchup lately? And I'm not talking Heinz.

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Old 10-06-2012, 06:34 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffjjpkiser1 View Post
Since I'm not in the habit of someone calling me or my brethren the boogeyman, I got up this morning, inspected by East Coast IPA fermenting away, and grabbed the bible or Homebrew scripture if you prefer.
No one called any person the boogeyman - it was originally an admittedly bad reference toward tannins by me - the intent was to indicate to the OP that his beer might very well be fine without launching into a dissertation on the subject of tannins and astringency.

Going Papazian on someone, well, that's new to me. The Joy of Homebrewing was the first book on brewing I ever read and I respect the author completely, but I don't take what is written in that book as gospel. For instance, he writes about how to sanitize with bleach if I recall correctly, and if I'm not mistaken that has gone out of style. I'm sure there are other examples.

 
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:50 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo

No one called any person the boogeyman - it was originally an admittedly bad reference toward tannins by me - the intent was to indicate to the OP that his beer might very well be fine without launching into a dissertation on the subject of tannins and astringency.
My apologies grandmaster of all Homebrewers, why make reference to mashing when were talking about brewing with a kit. And to further my point, yes I have brewed many batches with various variables not at an optimum level and yes the tannins provided an overwhelming taste from what I was stepping that I didn't want. Regardless of what I'm referencing, the recommendations then still make sense now. It sounds from the looks of it, that your beyond any book or reference that's become a staple of the Homebrewer bookshelf.

Well excuse me for making a reference to anything. Grab a beer and get off your high horse, I've been drinking Dogfish Head Punk lately. Are you now going to tell me how bourgeois I am to drink beer from the store?!
About time you take a dip in a vat full of Lambic to tart you out, oh great master!!!

 
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:25 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo

No one called any person the boogeyman - it was originally an admittedly bad reference toward tannins by me - the intent was to indicate to the OP that his beer might very well be fine without launching into a dissertation on the subject of tannins and astringency.

Going Papazian on someone, well, that's new to me. The Joy of Homebrewing was the first book on brewing I ever read and I respect the author completely, but I don't take what is written in that book as gospel. For instance, he writes about how to sanitize with bleach if I recall correctly, and if I'm not mistaken that has gone out of style. I'm sure there are other examples.
Yes because Iostar and other cleaning agents didn't exist back then

 
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:00 PM   #46
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Jeff - I believe you might have me confused with NordeastBrewer77, and vice versa. edit: I can't tell who you're trying to insult - it seems like much of what you said is targeted at Nordeast, not me. But I think he's completely right, so if you want to insult me too that's fine.

 
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:36 PM   #47
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Grab a beer and enjoy! There's my insult. Now go pound grain!

 
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:32 AM   #48
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[email protected], I wasn't even trying to be insulting in the least. I really think Jeff missed my point. My whole point was that a lot of the common worries in brewing aren't really things we need to be that concerned about. In this case, tannins from high temps in an extract with grains batch isn't as big of a concern as some people have said it was.
Sure, tannins are a real thing, and you gotta take measures to avoid them. But..... a pound (or so) of grains in near boiling water is not likely to produce a tannic beer by most people's taste threshold for tannins. Now, an entire mash (even if it's a "partial mash") at that high a temp, then there's a real risk of a very tannic brew. In a simple steep, things like water volume, pH, and even temps to some degree aren't nearly as important. That's not talking down to anyone, that's speaking from many, many batches of beer, the majority of them extract with grains batches.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt View Post
can i drink this? I mean. Im gunna. But is it fine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeoitsmatt View Post
it's not a barley wine. it's an ale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bottlebomber View Post
Have you seen the price of ketchup lately? And I'm not talking Heinz.

 
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:30 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NordeastBrewer77
[email protected], I wasn't even trying to be insulting in the least. I really think Jeff missed my point. My whole point was that a lot of the common worries in brewing aren't really things we need to be that concerned about. In this case, tannins from high temps in an extract with grains batch isn't as big of a concern as some people have said it was.
I think this thread is like the twilight zone. Where despite best intentions everyone seems to misunderstand and take offense, and posters seem to be confusing what one person said with what another said... I think this is just one of those threads...

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Old 10-07-2012, 01:56 AM   #50
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Guys, don't sweat the small stuff. Getting the steeping grains too hot just isn't a big deal. Tannins are driven far more by pH than by temp, especially for these time frames. Remember that decoction mashing is having us BOIL significant portions of our grist...overdoing it a bit on steeping grains is nothing to worry about....


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