Coldbreak Brewing Giveaway - Open to All!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > Gusher Experience
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-05-2012, 05:56 PM   #11
Rip
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sacramento, California, Kalifornia
Posts: 109
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts

Default

Quote:
I soak my bottles for at least 24 hours in bleach, then re-dip in bleach and star-san before putting them in the diswasher on "heated dry" to try to kill off any bottle-related infections.
Sanitizing is not Cleaning... how often do you wash your bottles and with what?

Quote:
I do mix up my star-san directly in my bottling bucket, brush the inside with a scrub brush before and after every usage. I transfer the star san to another bucket before using.
Brush? Bucket? What? Why brush? Where's the soap? (Oxiclean, PBW, something?) I think it might be important to use some surfactant in your process... it's important to remove the gunk before sanitizing with bleach or starsan or whatnot. Otherwise you're just sanitizing the top layer of bacteria/junk and allowing other detritus below to remain alive.



Rip is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 01:49 PM   #12
jfr1111
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Quebec, Quebec
Posts: 1,579
Liked 62 Times on 53 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rip View Post
Sanitizing is not Cleaning... how often do you wash your bottles and with what?



Brush? Bucket? What? Why brush? Where's the soap? (Oxiclean, PBW, something?) I think it might be important to use some surfactant in your process... it's important to remove the gunk before sanitizing with bleach or starsan or whatnot. Otherwise you're just sanitizing the top layer of bacteria/junk and allowing other detritus below to remain alive.

Exactly, your process is really overcomplicated: you first clean the equipment, store dry and THEN sanitize on brew/bottling day. You don't need to give four baths to your bottles before putting them in the dishwasher ; it's overkill and it increases the chances of something going wrong.

Speaking of the dishwasher, I know some people swear up and down that it works for them, never had an infection, yada yada, but might I suggest sticking to Star San or baking them in the oven because I'm starting to suspect it's the culprit. Contact time with steam for sterilization is minimal, but once the dishwasher cools down (and your bottles do to), it's easy for crap to get in there unless you keep them upside down to the very last minute. You also can't be sure the dishwasher gets hot enough.

I'd really suggest streamlining your whole process and leaving behind crappy kit instructions.


jfr1111 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 06:43 AM   #13
C-Rider
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
C-Rider's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Wai, Hawaii
Posts: 2,970
Liked 205 Times on 165 Posts
Likes Given: 522

Default

Here is my system.
1-drink beer either commercial or home brew. Rinse as soon as possable in sink water. Store upside down to dry. Stack in spare room until I have 12.
2-Soak 12 bottles in 5 gallon bucket of Oxyclean for a few days to remove labels.
3-Remove from Oxyclean and rinse in sink then store in large plastic box w/cover until needed.
4-Soak in StarSan for a min or two but check each to besure nothing is inside.
5-Line up bottles in diswasher to before filling w/beer. Spray dishwasher rack w/Starsan just to be sure before placing bottles there.
6-Put about 2 cups StarSan in bottling bucket. Using washcloths that has soaked in StarSan wipe the inside of bucket. Bottling spigot Is also soaked in StarSan for a while and then put in the bucket.
7-Bottling wand is also soaked in StarSan for a few minutes before use.

After brewing/bottling buckets are just hosed out to remove particles and then whipped down w/rag soaked in Oxyclean. No need to "scrub" anything w/a brush. If I don't get to clean after brewing/bottling I'll fill bucket w/Oxyclean and let sit full until I can get to cleaning it.
__________________
Kaiser Ridge Brewing
-------------------------
Fermenting: German IPA
Fermenting: Choc/Coffee Stout
Bottled in the refer: SN Celebration Clone
Bottled in the refer: Choc/Coffee Stout
Bottled in the refer: Am. Pale Ale(3/28)
Bottled in the refer: German Dry Stout
Bottled in the refer: Am Imperial Stout(3/11)
Bottled in the refer: GermanImperialStout
C-Rider is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 07:23 AM   #14
estricklin
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
estricklin's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oppelo, Arkansas
Posts: 1,590
Liked 201 Times on 163 Posts
Likes Given: 212

Default

I had a recent problem with gusher infections and I was beating my brain out trying to figure it out. I found that it was coming from water dripping off my oven hood when I brew, more precisely water dripping off after flame out.

These beers started out ok, but over the coarse of so many weeks, especially about 6 they were huge gushers and had a smell that would make me sick. They all tasted fine in the primary and secondary, (the ones I chose to secondary).

Do you brew outdoors? Maybe something is getting into the beer after flame out and before you get it in the fermenter?

HCL, boiling water? Anything can be sanitized with simple bleach water!! You know it's not your bottling or fermenting equipment that's the problem!!!

I sure hope you find the solution, keep us posted!
estricklin is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 07:25 AM   #15
estricklin
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
estricklin's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oppelo, Arkansas
Posts: 1,590
Liked 201 Times on 163 Posts
Likes Given: 212

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfr1111 View Post
Exactly, your process is really overcomplicated: you first clean the equipment, store dry and THEN sanitize on brew/bottling day. You don't need to give four baths to your bottles before putting them in the dishwasher ; it's overkill and it increases the chances of something going wrong.

Speaking of the dishwasher, I know some people swear up and down that it works for them, never had an infection, yada yada, but might I suggest sticking to Star San or baking them in the oven because I'm starting to suspect it's the culprit. Contact time with steam for sterilization is minimal, but once the dishwasher cools down (and your bottles do to), it's easy for crap to get in there unless you keep them upside down to the very last minute. You also can't be sure the dishwasher gets hot enough.

I'd really suggest streamlining your whole process and leaving behind crappy kit instructions.
I totally agree!

I would add though that if the bottles are the problem...it probably wouldn't be all of them. Maybe a hand full in a batch at most??
estricklin is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2012, 02:11 AM   #16
tennesseean_87
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
tennesseean_87's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Philly, PA
Posts: 1,201
Liked 87 Times on 63 Posts
Likes Given: 107

Default

That looks like a normal yeast cake at the bottom of the bottle.
__________________
#8 Corks in Belgian Bottles Hold Carbonation
Increasing Pipeline Diversity
Fermenting: E Fitzgerald Porter, American Special Bitter, Light Lager (sorta between Helles and Vienna), Summer Session Saison
On Deck: White IPA, Tripel?, Pils? Hefe? Hoppy Brown?

Youtube Channel on Homebrewing ::: Youtube Channel on Pipe Smoking
tennesseean_87 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2012, 11:30 AM   #17
jshell55
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 18
Default

Update:

I have my recovery batch in the secondary now, and just about ready to bottle it. I have done some research on this.

1. The Gusher Bug: This is likely to be one or both of two types of bacteria, lactobacillus of which the two main types are acidophilus and pediococcus. The names of both of these sound pretty gross but according to my hour or two of research, not only will they not kill you, they are both considered "probiotics" and actually will help your digestion. They do make your beer taste funny and cause a mess on your lazy boy though. The thing about both of these are that they are ubiquitous: present everywhere in nature, so it is hard to completely eliminate them without pasteurizing the beer, which is something I would never do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_acidophilus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pediococcus


Acidophilus is also present in your mouth, and vagina, if you have one, therefore could be transmitted during siphoning...since I am (or was) siphoning by mouth.



2. My bottle cleaning method: I did not tell you earlier that I am 100% diligent in rinsing out my bottles right after I drink them, so as to minimize the build-up, but I am taking this seriously, as I will explain below.

2. Bleach vs. Oxy Clean: I did some research on this question: The pH of bleach is about 12, the pH of Oxy Clean is about 11, and I do not have my log chart with me but each higher unit of pH is 10X higher in OH- concentration.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_pH_of_bleach
http://www.oxiclean.com/FAQ.aspx

So for sheer crud removing power, the bleach is better. If I wanted to I could go to lye, which is sodium hydroxide, which is around 13, depending on concentration but I really like the skin on my hands and would prefer not to take it off with the same stuff that Granny Clampett used to use to make soap.

The benefit to the OxyClean is that it has some fizziness to it, and a look at the MSDS sheet says that the fizziness is probably due to the Sodium Carbonate, better known as "baking soda" that goes into it, is way cheap, and can be bought elsewhere in the store if it were to float my boat to do so.

https://wercs.churchdwight.com/webvi...ng=language=EN

3. Normal yeast cake: I cannot totally rule this out, because some of the beer I kept around for sampling purposes is still drinkable (pretty good, actually).

4. The possibility that I flipped out and over-reacted to the problem and dumped my stout prematurely: Likely. Live and learn.

5. The yeast: No one mentioned that, but come to find out that the fact I was recycling the yeast could be the cause of the problem as well.

http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-bre...st_washing.htm

according to this reference, there is some bacteria present in all of this stuff, and I can imagine that since I was on my fifth or sixth batch with that same yeast culture, this is another source of infection. For my recovery batch, I started over on IPA yeast and may make it a corporate policy (when I start my corporation) that I will put a limit on the number of generations I use the yeast. There is apparently a method to acid-wash your yeast with phosphoric acid or some similar stuff, but every time you transfer this crap into another vessel is another opportunity to contaminate it so I am leaning toward just replacing it occasionally.

6. My bottle washing method: I was filling and shaking my bottles in bleach solution, and then into Star San solution. Here is where I screwed up. Since the bleach is a base, and the Star San is an acid, I basically defeated the purpose of both by washing one after another. Chances are if I had used either by itself it would have been better.

I do inspect my bottles for crud.

But, from now on, I will use my brain and do one or the other.

7. I need to check the temperature of the "heated dry" on my dishwasher but I am pretty comfortable with that as a method of killing off at least some of the bacteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pediococcus_acidilactici

According to this reference, pediococcus is viable up to 65C, which is 150 degrees F, so it is likely that the dishwasher will indeed kill this stuff if it gets hot enough. It is also likely that it it is not surviving my boil, because I am transferring the wort directly into the carboy instantly at knockoff, since my wort cooler works so efficiently. It could pretty easily be living in my wort cooler, though....

8. My wine. I told you I was doing some wine in the same equipment: According to one of these references, the sulfites used in wine kills this stuff off, so I am optimistic I did not taint that stuff. I am bottling that this weekend too.

9. I built a little bottling station. I found a cheap used sink on Craigslist, and have plumbed that thing up with an old water pump I have to draw out of a bucket, which will allow me to blast a solution of anything I want, including oxyclean or bleach or starsan or PBW directly into my bottles at 75 PSI, thus hopefully blasting any crud off of the inside of the bottle before I try to bottle this batch.

Leaving aside the question of how I am going to sanitize that thing, I will throw it open to the forum the question of what I will use to blast my bottles.

Tomorrow is bottling day....

9. The batch I bottled 3 weeks ago, when I first panicked and disposed of a lot of beer... that is the best batch of beer in the 8000 year history of brewing, so I will take your advice and not let that sit around too long.

10. Some of my retained samples from that time frame or before have been opened up and not gushered, which says that at least I probably contained my problem, and can start giving this stuff to the neighbors again.

11. The Oktoberfest thing: According to that reference the overnight incubation for pediococcus is 37 C which is 100 degrees F , so guess what: I am not going to bottle beer in fricking Atlanta in July and August anymore. The monks knew something all of those years ago when they made it illegal to brew between March and September. Also, this says that my wort chiller needs to be working really efficiently to cool my next batch all the way down to sub-ambient so as to keep the bacterial growth down to a minimum.

12. There is a guy doing some work on different extracted hop oils as a natural anti-bacterial agent, and what this suggests is that some hop types will be more resistant to the bacteria than others...

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t750731802251xp5/

gotta love hops.

This is the second year I've had a problem. Last summer it was Acetobacter.

Learning experiences are everywhere.
jshell55 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2012, 11:58 AM   #18
tinman1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Galveston, Indiana
Posts: 91
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts

Default

I have only done the dishwasher thing once, and produced a red ale with same characteristics. I keg now, which is alot easier. When I do bottle, its high gravity beers. I take prewashed bottles, run thru bottle jet washer, star san and bottle. No probs whatsoever. I agree with previous posts that you are over complicating the process. I too believe in the way of the monks.....and they keep it simple.....RDWHAHB!
tinman1 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2012, 02:10 PM   #19
sweetcell
Swollen Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
sweetcell's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 4,565
Liked 802 Times on 591 Posts
Likes Given: 319

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jshell55 View Post
1. The Gusher Bug: This is likely to be one or both of two types of bacteria, lactobacillus of which the two main types are acidophilus and pediococcus.
super-geeky nit-picking: peddicoccus is a different genus that lactobacillus. they both belong to the Lactobacillaceae family, but that's a level up from genus. acidophilus is a species of lactobacillus (the level below genus). in other words:

Code:
1.  Lactobacillaceae
	1.1  Lactobacillus             
		l.1.1  L. acidophilus
		1.1.2  L. delbrueckii 
		1.1.3  (etc.)
	1.2  Pediococcus
		1.2.1 P. acidilactici
also, it's worth noting that wild yeasts are also a major source of gushers. like pedio and lacto, wild yeasts can digests sugars that brewer's yeast can't. you bottle thinking that you've hit FG, but then the invaders kick in, eat the left-overs, pressure builds, and a gusher is made

Quote:
Originally Posted by jshell55 View Post
2. Bleach vs. Oxy Clean: I did some research on this question: The pH of bleach is about 12, the pH of Oxy Clean is about 11, and I do not have my log chart with me but each higher unit of pH is 10X higher in OH- concentration.

So for sheer crud removing power, the bleach is better.
you can't make a statement like that, because you are comparing the pure, undilluted form of each one. i doubt you are dipping your bottles in pure bleach. so what matters is the pH of the rinsing solution you use. it isn't hard to make a solution of oxyclean with a higher pH than a solution made with bleach - it's all about proportions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jshell55 View Post
6. My bottle washing method: I was filling and shaking my bottles in bleach solution, and then into Star San solution. Here is where I screwed up. Since the bleach is a base, and the Star San is an acid, I basically defeated the purpose of both by washing one after another. Chances are if I had used either by itself it would have been better.
not entirely. since your bottle went into the bleach solution first, you got the full benefit of that (aside: were your bottles getting at least 30 seconds contact time? apparently that's what bleach needs). you were not getting much if any benefit from the star san, since as you noted the bleach was likely bringing up the pH to a level where it was no longer effective. what you might want to do is let the bottles drip-dry for a minute, then rinse well with tap water, before hitting them with star san.
__________________
.
What hops should I grow? Looking for cheap honey?

Drinking: Tripel'ish, oud bruin, gueuz'ish thing, saison bottled with ECY34, imperial chocolate stout, dubbel
Carb'ing: local sour cherry kriek
Aging: TYB saison brett blend, Tripel'ish with brett, sour cherry mead, rye sour ECY20/ECY34 split, several other sours, acerglyn
sweetcell is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2012, 03:19 PM   #20
estricklin
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
estricklin's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Oppelo, Arkansas
Posts: 1,590
Liked 201 Times on 163 Posts
Likes Given: 212

Default

I'm going to throw out one more quick little note.

If you don't have a racking cane, (or you broke it like I did), you can siphon WITHOUT using your mouth. It's simple. Just fill the hose with water and keep your thumb over one end, place one end in the fermenter and the other in your bottling bucket, release your thumb from the end of the hose when it's in the bottling bucket and this will start the siphon just fine.

You can also start a siphon with any kind of pressurized gas but I'm not going to go into that since it's hardly worth the trouble.


estricklin is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who's got some dubbel experience? rexbanner General Techniques 16 10-11-2010 07:30 PM
experience with FWHing loganb General Techniques 22 11-12-2009 11:19 PM
Yeast Vial Gusher DrewsBrew General Techniques 13 04-08-2008 01:41 AM
My experience / Your help stormtracker General Techniques 4 12-31-2007 08:44 PM
Had my 1st Gusher razyrsharpe General Techniques 4 05-11-2007 04:58 PM


Forum Jump

Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS