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Old 09-30-2012, 10:38 PM   #1
tnbrewer371
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so i leave my fwh in for the entire boil? how do i not get the same utilization as I would if i tossed them in when the boil began, while also getting the benefits that fwh'ing gives us? in my mind im extracting the same bu's as tossing them in when the boil begins but getting added benefit. am i wrong in thinking this? lately in my "hoppy" beers i have been subbing my main bittering addition for a fwh addition. is this bad practice? (please dont answer "well if its working for you?") can anyone point to any science that says my fwh addition is extracting the same bu's as for example a 60 min addition would give you? (i always do 75-90+ min boils). I find it hard to believe that im extracting less bu's than in a normal start of boil addition when i leave my fwh in till flameout....
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:54 PM   #2
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First wort hopping cannot possibly work, but I must admit it seems to.
As for what difference it makes to the bittering contribution, Beersmith defaults to adding an extra 10% IBU for the FWH, but Promash defaults to subtracting 10%
I would hazard a guess that nobody understands the science behind it. I know that I don't.

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Old 09-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #3
tnbrewer371
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what do you mean it doesnt work? in my mind it seems to give you the best of both worlds if you allow the fwh to stay in the kettle till flameout. How can the ibu contribution be less than if you added them at the beginning of the boil if you leave them in till flameout?

thanks for contributing the math that beersmith defaults to though....
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:58 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnbrewer371 View Post
what do you mean it doesnt work? in my mind it seems to give you the best of both worlds if you allow the fwh to stay in the kettle till flameout. How can the ibu contribution be less than if you added them at the beginning of the boil if you leave them in till flameout?

thanks for contributing the math that beersmith defaults to though....
I don't think the IBU contribution is less. It's just that it's "perceived" as less since it's supposed to be a smoother bitterness.

I calculate them as a 60 minute addition, and it seems about right to me.
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:05 PM   #5
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yah i calculate them at whatever im setting my boil time to and I seem to get sufficient bittering, and I lilke hoppy beers. Information in past threads on fwh'ing on here seems to suggest that you should set the time for a fwh'ing addition to 1/3 of the total boil time and from past experiences i dont see how that can be accurate
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Old 10-01-2012, 02:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnbrewer371 View Post
what do you mean it doesnt work? in my mind it seems to give you the best of both worlds if you allow the fwh to stay in the kettle till flameout. How can the ibu contribution be less than if you added them at the beginning of the boil if you leave them in till flameout?

thanks for contributing the math that beersmith defaults to though....
Sorry if you misunderstood my post.
I didn't say it doesn't work. I said it cannot possibly work (if you believe the pseudo-scientific explanations regarding the effects of boil time on hop flavor and aroma).
I also said that it seems to work for me. Perhaps I should have replaced the with a

I agree with you regarding the IBU calculations, but these are just guesstimates. I couldn't detect a difference of 10% in IBU

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Old 10-01-2012, 03:10 AM   #7
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Gordon Strong has a lot about this in his new book.

The perceived bitterness is that of a 20 minute addition, according to the book. So, that's what I put in for Beer Smith. I now do FWH for all my IPA and load up on end additions (20 min or less) and my hop flavor and aroma is huge.

The science behind it is that the bittering and flavor compounds are pulled out by the lower temps but not isomerized, thus the bittering is not as much. These compounds do not end up getting isomerized during the boil either. I've done 90 minute boils with FWH and they've been great.

 
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kylevester View Post
Gordon Strong has a lot about this in his new book.

The perceived bitterness is that of a 20 minute addition, according to the book. So, that's what I put in for Beer Smith. I now do FWH for all my IPA and load up on end additions (20 min or less) and my hop flavor and aroma is huge.

The science behind it is that the bittering and flavor compounds are pulled out by the lower temps but not isomerized, thus the bittering is not as much. These compounds do not end up getting isomerized during the boil either. I've done 90 minute boils with FWH and they've been great.
Just read this recently while planning my Zombie Dust clone, I calced the IBUs as 20 min addition as well. Brewed yeasterday and took a sip of the wort, to me it was def much smother- there wasnt the initial bite like other brews. Is there a style this wouldnt work with?-might be doing this regularly.

 
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igotworts View Post
Just read this recently while planning my Zombie Dust clone, I calced the IBUs as 20 min addition as well. Brewed yeasterday and took a sip of the wort, to me it was def much smother- there wasnt the initial bite like other brews. Is there a style this wouldnt work with?-might be doing this regularly.
Styles where hop flavor and aroma aren't supposed to be prevalent FWH probably shouldn't be used. Otherwise, go for it. Hell, unless you're entering a competition, give it a try and see how it is.

 
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:31 AM   #10
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I FWH most of my beers. In my experience, beers end up with less perceived bitterness but better flavor. 10% less is a reasonable ballpark, I think. No explanation here, either--just experience (~35 FWH batches in the last 20 months).
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