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Old 09-18-2012, 07:38 PM   #21
Homercidal
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Did this move to the brewing science area?

FYI - After a very quick search on google I found a website from a Hawaiian county which claims that boiling is not a practical method of removing chloramines, and a paper from "The Scottish Centre for infection and Environmental Health" Titled "Chemicals in Drinking Water: Chloramines" which states that Chloramines can be removed from water using activated carbon with low flow rates (5 to 10 minutes contact time), followed by residual ammonia adsoption using mineral zeolite media. The use of reducing agents such as sodium sulfite, sodium bisulfite, sodium thiosulfite, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) also removes monochromatic from water. Boiling and aeration are ineffective methods for monochloramine removal.

 
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Old 09-18-2012, 07:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homercidal View Post
Did this move to the brewing science area?

FYI - After a very quick search on google I found a website from a Hawaiian county which claims that boiling is not a practical method of removing chloramines, and a paper from "The Scottish Centre for infection and Environmental Health" Titled "Chemicals in Drinking Water: Chloramines" which states that Chloramines can be removed from water using activated carbon with low flow rates (5 to 10 minutes contact time), followed by residual ammonia adsoption using mineral zeolite media. The use of reducing agents such as sodium sulfite, sodium bisulfite, sodium thiosulfite, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) also removes monochromatic from water. Boiling and aeration are ineffective methods for monochloramine removal.
I'm mostly using the resource linked to in an above post: http://hbd.org/ajdelange/Brewing_art...T_Chlorine.pdf

I recognized the paper as being by AJ deLange, and the experiments sound perfectly sound, even though the paper does have a date of more than 11 years ago. AJ can let us know if he has anything newer published.
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:03 PM   #23
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iambeer,

Don't listen to Yooper or trust that old paper by AJ Delange.

Go ahead and boil for 20 minutes, you will be fine. All the Chloramine will be gone.
Thats what I do and my beer tastes good.




Keep in mind that no one here knows what they are talking about, they just like to talk. You wont learn anything by reading articles here. Has anyone here won anything, or been brewing for more than a year?

Trust your city government, their purpose is to take care of their citizens.

>>That is the dated document from the 90's.... In contrast, multiple .gov and city water websites are saying that it takes 5 minutes to remove half of chloramine (and 5 minutes for another 50% reduction, etc) or approximately 20 minutes to remove most of chloramines. I don't understand why you guys can't accept that.

I agree with you. The Chloramine will be long gone, before the end of your 60 minute boil.
Most cities run excellent breweries. The city of Stone in California makes great IPAs. The city of Sierra Nevada on California also makes good beer.

1. Make sure you never squeeze your grain bag if you steep your grain, else you will get Tannins in your beer.

2. Make sure you transfer your beer to a secondary after 5 days. Leaving your beer on that dead yeast cake will cause autolysis and ruin your beer.

3. Don't use Aluminum pots, else you will get Alzheimers.

4. Don't let your beer get stale, bottle it after a week in the secondary (in clear bottles, so sunlight can kill any foreign yeast).
Give it a week to carbonate and start drinking it.

5. This is all true, no sarcasm at all.

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Old 09-18-2012, 09:32 PM   #24
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Who cares what the half life is? Even if boiling for 20 minutes really reduces the chloramine to 1/16 of its original level, and even if that is enough to eliminate any impact on the beer, who is going to boil all their water for 20 minutes or more, then cool it down to use for mashing and sparging when all you have to do is add a Campden tablet? Or if you are doing an extract brew, why waste time and propane or electricity boiling water before adding the extract?

 
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:48 PM   #25
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>> then cool it down to use for mashing and sparging when all you have to do is add a Campden tablet?

Hey! Don't exagerate. Its HALF a Campden tablet for a 5 gallon All Grain batch.


But I can understand avoiding using them, they are expensive. Like 3 cents per tablet, cut in half, thats 1.5 cents extra for a 5 gallon batch. I'd rather have bad taste than spring for that extra cash.

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/produc...roducts_id=810

 
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:55 PM   #26
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For the life of me, I can't understand people's avoidance of using campden. I see all kinds of bad info on this site about how to get rid of chlorine/chloramine when it can be eliminated with a 1/4 tab per 5 gals of water. I use it in every batch.

I just went and looked at the price tag on my campden tablets. It was $1.90 for 50 tabs.

I think $.08 per batch is pretty damned good insurance against band-aid beer.

 
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Old 09-18-2012, 10:59 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCCOLA View Post
For the life of me, I can't understand people's avoidance of using campden. I see all kinds of bad info on this site about how to get rid of chlorine/chloramine when it can be eliminated with a 1/4 tab per 5 gals of water. I use it in every batch.

I just went and looked at the price tag on my campden tablets. It was $1.90 for 50 tabs.

I think $.08 per batch is pretty damned good insurance against band-aid beer.
Missed the point. It's easier to argue against people, and boil it for 20 minutes and then figure it's... maybe halfway gone..

I too think that if you use tap, a campden tablet will fix all of that quickly and you can move on to more pressing matters.

 
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:36 AM   #28
ajdelange
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Originally Posted by iambeer View Post
The document isn't science,
Funny, I rather thought it was. A bunch of experiments were planned and carried out, the data analyzed and the results written up. Isn't that what science is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iambeer View Post
it's an anonymous paper...
Hardly. It was published in Brewing Techniques with my name plainly attached. It appears on my website and sites that mirror it with my name next to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iambeer View Post
...based on other papers.
Guess you haven't read it. It was based on experiments. The title was "Experiments in removing chlorine and chloramine from brewing water" Naturally there were some references but all the data came from the experiments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iambeer View Post
No one has to vouch for its authenticity.
I do.

Now that the foolishness has been dealt with a couple of comments on the science (if we can accept that there was any): One of the points the paper makes is that the chemistry of chloramine is complex and not fully understood. At least it wasn't when I wrote the paper. As a consequence of this the half life of chloramine can be variable depending on many other factors. I am not at all surprised at the range reported by some of the water companies. In my experiments I found appreciably different half lives for the two municipal waters and the water I chloraminated myself.

The observed half life is going to depend on how the boiling is carried out as well. Le Chatelier's principle suggests, for example, that good ventilation and the vigor of the boil (how extensively steam is sparging the water) should have an effect on the rate of removal.

All that may be well and good but it should be clear to anyone in his right mind that boiling, whether the half life be 26.6 minutes or 5 minutes, is not a practical way to remove chloramine from water relative to the simplicity of adding a Campden tablet.

One other comment I caught implied that RO units remove chloramine. They do but it is actually a carbon filter that precedes the RO membrane that does the job. Chloramine (or chlorine) will poison the membrane pretty quickly and so water that enters the membrane cartridge must be chloramine free.

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Old 09-19-2012, 06:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homercidal View Post
Did this move to the brewing science area?

FYI - After a very quick search on google I found a website from a Hawaiian county which claims that boiling is not a practical method of removing chloramines, and a paper from "The Scottish Centre for infection and Environmental Health" Titled "Chemicals in Drinking Water: Chloramines" which states that Chloramines can be removed from water using activated carbon with low flow rates (5 to 10 minutes contact time), followed by residual ammonia adsoption using mineral zeolite media. The use of reducing agents such as sodium sulfite, sodium bisulfite, sodium thiosulfite, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) also removes monochromatic from water. Boiling and aeration are ineffective methods for monochloramine removal.
I was very clear that I was only suggesting that there are many sources (more recent, authoritative sources) that claim chloramine can be removed in minutes. But look at these responses. It's as if I shot their mommas! Hilarious.

 
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:49 AM   #30
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>. But look at these responses. It's as if I shot their mommas! Hilarious.

No, its that you came on like an A$$, telling everyone they were wrong.

The danger is that some noob will listen to you and brew bad tasting beer, because they didn't remove the Chloramine.

No one is forcing you to listen to AJ or anyone else. What do they know? Don't take his word, brew your beer with a 20 minute boil to remove the Chloramine.
I'll bet it tastes great.

If you had phrased your initial comments better, you wouldn't have caused people to mock you.




PS I work in NYC. I trust the city government. I've trusted them for years. Especially several weeks after 9/11 when the mayor said it was safe to go back to your apartments a few blocks away. Governments always have the best information, are well motivated, and are heavily involved in brewing.

 
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