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Old 09-07-2012, 10:31 PM   #21
barhoc11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terrapinj View Post
Why would he need to age the beer longer if using decoction?

i've never heard this before
I think he is referring to Lagering taking about 2 - 3 months to get the finished product... unless I am missing something.



 
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:46 PM   #22
terrapinj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barhoc11 View Post
I think he is referring to Lagering taking about 2 - 3 months to get the finished product... unless I am missing something.
ah ok - i assumed that was tacit with brewing a lager regardless of mash technique




 
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:31 AM   #23
barhoc11
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Just watched all of the videos from BrauKaiser and it helped a lot to see everything done visually. The only question I have is, during the last decoction that is used to get the MLT up to ~168, why is there no 'first runnings' like in a single infusion? It seems like using decoction method, there is no use for 'first runnings' and then sparging if you can fit the total volume in your MLT?

I am just not getting the final sparge process because he says he heats up his sparge water but then I do not see anything after that. I know he couldn't have fit all that water into that 5gal cooler so is the process to get everything up to 168 after the final decoction, mash out, and then add more sparge water in to get to final volume?

Thanks again, I feel like I am getting close using the Enhanced Double Decoction Method.

 
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Old 09-09-2012, 04:47 AM   #24
VladOfTrub
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"Honestly, if you don't have proper way of testing and correcting your mash pH, then don't worry about it. If you haven't had issues in the past with tannin extraction with a normal mash then I wouldn't worry about it, especially with your first decoction." "If when the beer is complete and you have "tannin off flavors" then you'll know most likely you have pH issues."


Honestly, the above statements aren't necessarily true. What is a "normal mash?" If you're referring to an infusion or step mash. They're not boiled. Is a decoction an abnormal mash?.... Here's the deal. Once, mash is boiled in a high pH zone, tannins will be stripped from the husk. The longer the boil, the worse it gets. Not only that. Lager yeast works best in a lower pH band. That's another reason it's important that the pH of the run off should be watched. There are other things that occur when the mash pH is correct. When you start boiling the mash in the proper pH zone and TDS aren't sky high. The water in the boiled mash becomes "wetter". It's a chemical thing. This allows the water to get at the enzymes to get at the starch easier. The water feels slippery, surface tension is reduced. This helps to rinse out the sugars from the mash better, at beginning of the sparge. That's why if say a 1050 brew is desired, the first gallon or so of run off should be twice the gravity expected. If it isn't, you'll need to reheat and recirculate, or you'll need to run off too much wort and then boil it down to get the gravity wanted. Now, since most new brewers go from boiler to bottle to belly in a couple of weeks and don't know the sense that tannin gives in the mouth. They usually think it's hop bitterness. Tannin becomes more pronounced when the lager is aged out properly, as other flavors mello. Regarding the process. I wouldn't go to a doctor who didn't learn the process of setting bones or working on the brain pan. So, why brew a beer, just to see if it becomes tannic? Why not try to do it right the first time?...I watched part of the vid someone posted. I was embarrassed for the brewer. He had no idea of how much mash to pull for the decoctions. Much less being concerned with other things. Also, he put a "twist" on a beer that is brewed in a much finer way. He was wanting a beer with a warm earthy scent of fresh plowed dirt, mammalian, with the smell of cows. I lived in the country and the smell of a fresh plowed field was one thing. The stench from a herd of cattle wafting through the air was another. The guy mentioned Vikings boiling up grain. Vikings didn't know about hops. The alkaline water and tannic harshness went well. Balancing the magic shrooms, Belladonna, wormwood and Amanita Muscaria they tossed in. The guy missed his calling as a Shakespeare or Thos Hardy. A lager like a cask conditioned ale? If he wanted ale, brew an ale, it's easier and takes less time. Why would he be concerned about water chemistry, pH or dog hair? The off flavors created will add Zen and character to the swill, to go along with the cows and dirt. At least he gave a poor example of the decoction process to learn from. I started tri-decoction mashing pilsner and lager 30 years ago. I'm kind of glad, in away, that the Fred Flintstones of brewing weren't around yet making vids like that one. I learned from reading books from Siebel, Noonan and Fix and from dumping out hundreds of gallons of well aged swill, before reading those books. The guys making the vid were brewing up a load of fresh poo in their diapers when I started decoction brewing. The dogs in the vid were cool.

 
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Old 09-09-2012, 01:43 PM   #25
texasbrewer73
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Posts like this make me puke.
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Old 09-09-2012, 02:03 PM   #26
Maxkling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VladOfTrub View Post
All of what was said.
Everyone has their opinions. I brew because I enjoy it, no matter how the beer comes out. If it comes out crappy I learn and change it, there is NO WAY you can ever brew correctly the first time. For one, there is no correct way to brew, there are 1000's of techiques people use and get different outcomes. Two, you always learn as you brew, you can read a book / random post all day long and end up worse than you would have given it an old shot in the dark.



EDIT:: Ill be nice.

Back to the original questions, I gave my input, none of my decoctions have turned out crappy.
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:17 PM   #27
barhoc11
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I appreciate the banter and plan to go ahead with making this decoction mash soon but can someone please help me out with my last question regarding sparging? I think this is the last link to get me started on this, I will also try to pick up some pH strips to test things as I go.

Thanks!

 
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Old 09-09-2012, 03:58 PM   #28
texasbrewer73
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If I'm understanding your question correctly, I think your assumption with the way he sparged is right on. Bring mash to 168 with final decoction, drain the tun, add more sparge water (at 168), then drain what you need.

BTW - my oktoberfest came out great with this process (except I fly sparge). Just tapped the keg yesterday and I was 4 or 5 in before I knew it!
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Old 09-09-2012, 06:26 PM   #29
Maxkling
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I just batch sparge as normal.

If you go the ph strip route, get good ones, not cheap ones.
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Old 11-19-2012, 03:58 PM   #30
cooper
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So how did your brew turn out? I got a Maibock that's getting kegged tonight after 3 weeks at 50F and 4 days of D-Rest, going to taste it tonight when I keg it and get it ready for the lagering process.



 
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