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Old 08-15-2012, 03:54 PM   #11
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I've seen lots of hack jobs in my daily inspects so I'm not saying you're the same type, just making sure you're aware...

Now from your reply, gas supply may be an issue depending on the size of the pipe and how many of the 60K burners you're going to use. Say at most you will have 3 burners at 60K each totaling 180K... If the pipe you're planning on tying into is 1/2" or smaller you will have pressure problems as 1/2" is only good for 156K @ 10'. You'll definitely have to up the pipe size to 3/4" as it is good for 180K @ 30' or go up to 1" if the pipe run is going to be greater than 30' and less than 90'. At the stand you and run 1/2" after you tie in the first burner and then 3/8" to the last. Having a proper sized pipe system will ensure you don't have issues with pressure to your burners.

You also mentioned a vent hood above your stand... Having an exhaust system that exhausts more air than all the leaky windows, doors, and other building openings can allow air back in can also give you problems with negative air pressure. Meaning incoming air will come down your chimney and not allow your natural drafted gas appliances to vent to the outdoors and carbon monoxide will fill your basement and house.

What gas equipment do you currently have connected?
Have you upgraded your furnace and hot water tank to direct vent and capped your chimney? If you have, then negative pressure isn't going to play a factor.
If you haven't upgraded you need to ensure there will be enough makeup air for the air exhausted and enough combustion air for the burners to operate correctly as they are the atmospheric type. Lack of air = carbon monoxide.

I just want to make sure your brewing doesn't harm you or your family and is trouble free.


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Old 08-15-2012, 04:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyman View Post
I've seen lots of hack jobs in my daily inspects so I'm not saying you're the same type, just making sure you're aware...

Now from your reply, gas supply may be an issue depending on the size of the pipe and how many of the 60K burners you're going to use. Say at most you will have 3 burners at 60K each totaling 180K... If the pipe you're planning on tying into is 1/2" or smaller you will have pressure problems as 1/2" is only good for 156K @ 10'. You'll definitely have to up the pipe size to 3/4" as it is good for 180K @ 30' or go up to 1" if the pipe run is going to be greater than 30' and less than 90'. At the stand you and run 1/2" after you tie in the first burner and then 3/8" to the last. Having a proper sized pipe system will ensure you don't have issues with pressure to your burners.

You also mentioned a vent hood above your stand... Having an exhaust system that exhausts more air than all the leaky windows, doors, and other building openings can allow air back in can also give you problems with negative air pressure. Meaning incoming air will come down your chimney and not allow your natural drafted gas appliances to vent to the outdoors and carbon monoxide will fill your basement and house.

What gas equipment do you currently have connected?
Have you upgraded your furnace and hot water tank to direct vent and capped your chimney? If you have, then negative pressure isn't going to play a factor.
If you haven't upgraded you need to ensure there will be enough makeup air for the air exhausted and enough combustion air for the burners to operate correctly as they are the atmospheric type. Lack of air = carbon monoxide.

I just want to make sure your brewing doesn't harm you or your family and is trouble free.

I actually only plan on running a single burner for now. I may eventually add more and go with a multi-pot system, but I'm just looking to get my feet wet in AG brewing with BIAB in a keggle.

I believe the incoming gas line from the meter is either 3/4" or 1". I believe it reduces down to 1/2" after the furnace, but I'm not sure about that, I'd have to check.

If I brew in the basement, I could tap into the line at any point/diameter of line. If I brew on the back deck, I will have to use the pipe already run (1/2", I believe). Brewing in the garage I could also tap in at any point, as I'll have to run line regardless.

Potential lengths of pipe runs:
basement: probably <10 feet
deck: <25 feet
garage: <30 feet

Currently I have the following gas equipment:
Dual-fuel furnace/heat pump.
It runs as a heat pump year round. It has the natural gas furnace as a backup for below 34F (I think?) exterior temperatures. So basically, the gas furnace will run very rarely, and only in the coldest part of winter.

Gas water heater.


The heat pump/furnace is brand new (installed in February when we bought the house). When it was installed, the HVAC guys changed both the furnace and water heater from chimney venting to direct venting through the wall. There is a run of less than 5 feet of venting. So negative pressure *shouldn't* be an issue with me, but if I were to brew in the basement, I would have a fan running in the doorway of the room to bring fresh air in as the burner is running.

I believe I added a CO monitor in the laundry room where the furnace/water heater are when I bought the house. If there isn't one, I will add one before I ever fire up the burner. I will also be adding a fire extinguisher wherever I decide to brew.

I do appreciate your concern and wanting to make sure I do things the right way. I definitely do NOT want to burn down my house, or get CO poisoning, or do anything else that might imperil myself or my wife. Any help you can give me in that regards would be very appreciated.


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Old 08-15-2012, 04:55 PM   #13
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Also, about a third of the distance to the deck location would be the larger diameter pipe, and the other two thirds is the 1/2".
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Old 08-15-2012, 05:42 PM   #14
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I'm glad negative pressure won't be an issue... I see it almost every day when people swap out their older range hoods for newer higher CFM ones and now they wonder why their CO alarm is going off! I'd just make sure you have a window open somewhere in the house when running your exhaust hood in the basement. Those burners use more btus than the typical water heater so just think of your water heater with no venting attached... Not a smart idea eh? Exhaust hood is a must with these burners.

If you're only running one burner then the 1/2" line on your deck is ok. But it will not be able to supply enough gas for more than one burner. Most residential installs have 1" pipe off the meter to the furnace then drops off from there as lower btu appliances are connected. On some new homes I've seen contractors run 3/4" and I shake my head as it will only support the furnace and no future additions. If the home owner decides to add a gas fireplace or gas stove they'll have to upgrade all the pipe to 1". Always look to the future because even though your furnace will only run on the coldest day of the year the pipe size must support everything running at once and is code...

If and when you install in your basement I'd run 3/4" If you install in your garage I'd consider going 1-1/4" as you may decide to put a unit heater in there. If you don't want a unit heater in the garage I'd then run 1" and you'll have no issues with three burners and have room for some additional equipment. As for the deck... upgrade to 3/4" if you plan on more than the one burner.
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Old 08-15-2012, 06:18 PM   #15
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Oh yeah, the fireplace also runs off the natural gas line. I'm pretty sure the line goes 1" to the furnace, then drops to 3/4" or 1/2" to the water heater, then runs 1/2" to a T, which feeds the fireplace and the deck. I will take some actual measurements when I get home tonight and post them for reference.

Yeah, we had the CO alarm issue at our hold house. We bought new appliances when we moved in, including a new gas stove and microwave/hood vent. If we were cooking for longer than about 30 minutes, the alarm would go off. If we opened the kitchen window, the alarm never went off... What's kind of scary is the previous owner used an older gas cooktop without ANY venting whatsoever. It was just a plain cabinet above the stove!
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:28 PM   #16
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Gas stove tops don't require an exhaust hood even by code... In Canada anyway. Most gas cooktops only use 20K with all burners on full and typically no one cooks like that and there's enough air change to not have any issues with products of combustion. Plus the flame from the burner never touches the bottom of the pots so there's no chance of flame impingement which causes CO due to the breakdown of the inner and or outer flame cone. CO is only created by lack of air (dirty burner/improperly adjusted air shutter/too high of gas pressure) and flame impingement. So when you mount your burner make sure the flame does not come in contact with the kettle.
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Old 08-15-2012, 08:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyman View Post
Gas stove tops don't require an exhaust hood even by code... In Canada anyway. Most gas cooktops only use 20K with all burners on full and typically no one cooks like that and there's enough air change to not have any issues with products of combustion. Plus the flame from the burner never touches the bottom of the pots so there's no chance of flame impingement which causes CO due to the breakdown of the inner and or outer flame cone. CO is only created by lack of air (dirty burner/improperly adjusted air shutter/too high of gas pressure) and flame impingement. So when you mount your burner make sure the flame does not come in contact with the kettle.
Huh. I'd have to double check but I'm pretty sure our inspector said it was code that the stove had to be exhausted in some way. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

I think our stove had either 2x 15k and 2x 10k btu burners, or 2x 10k and 2x 8k. Can't remember.
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Old 08-15-2012, 10:29 PM   #18
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Ok, looks like I was slightly off on the supply sizes.

The supply pipe comes into the house as 1" ID. It hits a reducing T, where both outlets are 3/4" ID. One goes directly to the furnace (*This line does reduce to a 1/2" ID line before entering the furnace). The other runs to another reducing T, where both outlets are 1/2" ID. One of those goes directly to the water heater. The other heads to a third T, where both outlets stay 1/2" ID. One goes to the fireplace, and one goes through the wall to the deck.

Also, the furnace is direct vented through the wall, but the water heater exhaust is still run into the chimney. I thought they ran both to direct vent through the wall. So I could have an issue with some negative pressure there, since I will be in the same room as the water heater. I can either make sure to be bringing fresh air in with a fan through the doorway, or look into adding an air intake as well as an air vent close to the brewing station.

The easiest to tie into would be the 1/2" pipe. There are multiple shutoff valves before the two outlets on that, so it would be easy to shut off and add a T.

The next easiest spot to tie into would be right where the 1" ID pipe comes through the wall from the meter. There is a 90* fitting right inside the wall. I could just turn the gas off at the meter, vent the line, pop that 90 off, put a T in its place, and run 1" ID line either to an adjoining wall in the room, or all the way to the garage. I guess I could actually run it to the other wall and through for use on the deck if I wanted to.

The most difficult tie in would be on the 3/4" ID line, as it is very short, and already choked with a couple fittings and a shutoff valve (to shut off gas to the water heater). That is probably not a good option at this point.

I figure my best option is to either use a single burner on the deck, and be happy with it, since I won't have to alter any current gas lines, or T into the main 1" ID supply line for potential multiburner use in either the basement or the garage.

The only problem I see with tying into the 1" line, is that I would be putting a T before the line hits the furnace. Although this would probably only be an issue in the winter, when it was very cold out.

I also was contemplating bringing in a licensed tech to run the new line, as then I don't have to worry about messing with it and risk violating code or having leaks. I wonder how much they would charge to add a T and run about 10-15 feet of 1" ID line?
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Old 08-16-2012, 03:56 AM   #19
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Tying into the 1" 90 will work but may end up being more in labor as you will have to either cut the pipe after the 90 to be able to remove it to install a tee. Then thread the cut portion of pipe and install a union and another nipple to tie the existing piping back in. Or undo all the piping from a union (if there is one) back to the 1" 90.

Another option to consider is to tee right off the meter and drill a new entry into your brew space... I would definitely consider that as it will be easier for the installer and then you won't have to mess with your existing system and the possibility of having to increase your 1" pipe to 1-1/4" to support the entire load of your furnace, water heater, fireplace, and future bbq (can't let that deck line go to waste, plus you'll never run out of natural gas like you do with propane bottles when cooking steaks!)

If you find an installer who is ok with you running all your lines from the brew space to the meter and then him/her tying in at the meter would be the cheapest alternative.

As for the negative pressure issue, the only way to alleviate it is to open a window or have a 4" hole cut in your foundation to have makeup air brought into the brew space. No fan blowing from inside the house will over come the negative pressure as the air being exhausted outside isn't being replaced fast enough through any building air leakage. So the chimney becomes the easiest conduit for air to return back into the home.
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Old 08-16-2012, 02:20 PM   #20
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I think for now what I'm going to do is just plan to run the burner off the 1/2" line on the back deck. If I get to a point where I really want to brew in the garage or in the basement, I will probably get a hold of a plumber or HVAC guy to hook a new 1" line straight from the meter, and then see if can run all the piping to where I want it to be. That will probably be the most cost effective, and safest, route I can take. If I set up a brew station in the basement, I will use a vent hood with a return air vent to counteract the negative pressure issue.


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