Water profile important for saison? - Home Brew Forums
Register Now For Free!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Water profile important for saison?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-14-2012, 11:00 PM   #1


I would really like to try my hand at brewing a saison and i have been really interested in brewing chemistry lately. Is there a specific water profile that is used to create these beers or is it mostly a yeast driven style (of course i understand there should be some minerals in the water)? Using beer smith water profile creator and R/O water.

 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 01:09 AM   #2
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Feb 2011
Carmel, IN
Posts: 4,248
Liked 652 Times on 505 Posts


While Saison is a Belgian style with some phenolic notes, some hop bittering and aroma are typical to the style. A modest sulfate content will help dry the beer and its finish. The ionic content should be otherwise modest.
__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks

 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 01:26 AM   #3
Yooper
Ale's What Cures You!
HBT_ADMIN.png
 
Yooper's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Jun 2006
UP of Michigan, Winter Texan
Posts: 69,753
Liked 8021 Times on 5605 Posts


Martin, what do you consider "modest"? Especially for sulfate?

I'm finding that with a lowered sulfate content for all beer styles (including IPAs) I'm enjoying them more than ever. But maybe I went from "highish" to "modest" and that's why.
__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006

 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2012, 12:55 PM   #4
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Feb 2011
Carmel, IN
Posts: 4,248
Liked 652 Times on 505 Posts


I suggest that a modest sulfate level falls between 50 and 100 ppm. I like high sulfate (300 ppm) in my PAs and IPAs. I've seen many technical references and pro brewers caution against using a sulfate level above 300 to 350 ppm to avoid sulfury notes and flavors. I can't comment on that very high sulfate validity. I've heard from Colin Kaminski who has indicated that he enjoys sulfate levels of up to 900 ppm, but his customers do not.

This very high sulfate issue is one reason why emulating historic brewing water profiles such as Burton is unwise. Most references I've reviewed, show Burton water with sulfate well above 500 ppm. That might not produce a pleasant beer. Hopefully, Yooper didn't emulate that level in the past.

With respect to any malt focused style, I strongly agree that reducing sulfate to low levels (<50 ppm) is important.
__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks

 
Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 12:26 PM   #5

In farmhouse Ales, pg 105 Phil Markowski states, "The water of western Hainaut is hard, containing high levels of bicarbonates and sulfates." He goes on to talk about iron in the water, my water is naturally moderate in iron levels. Maybe I'll cut some of the ro with my well water.

Table 8 on pg 154

pH 7.2
Bicarbonate 350
Calcium 52
Choride 20
Mg 17
Sodium 35
Sulfates 107
Total Hardness 454

 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2016, 07:50 AM   #6
xico
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
 
xico's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Jan 2015
Ellensburg, Washington
Posts: 211
Liked 14 Times on 12 Posts


I'd like to revive this thread. I am working through my water profile for the style. Any new input in recent years?

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2016, 12:14 AM   #7
Ryat66
Recipes 
 
Jan 2015
Hershey, PA
Posts: 111
Liked 12 Times on 11 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by xico View Post
I'd like to revive this thread. I am working through my water profile for the style. Any new input in recent years?
While extreme, I recently used Tasty McDole's water profile on a saison and thought it was great!

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 03:44 AM   #8
xico
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
 
xico's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Jan 2015
Ellensburg, Washington
Posts: 211
Liked 14 Times on 12 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryat66 View Post
While extreme, I recently used Tasty McDole's water profile on a saison and thought it was great!
what were the numbers? do you know the bicarbonate?

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2016, 02:53 PM   #9
ajdelange
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Recipes 
 
Aug 2010
McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 9,291
Liked 1492 Times on 1139 Posts


Yes, the water profile is important as it will have an influence on the finished product but one cannot say "Use this profile for that beer" unless he knows what the brewers criterion of optimality is. The obvious one is to make an 'authentic', in this case, Saison. To do so one would want to use water typical of the water used by Saison brewers and to treat it in the same way they do, or did (does authentic mean like the ones being produced today or in yesteryear?).

Another optimality criterion is the best tasting beer and the immediately following question is "according to whom?". I well remember sitting at an investor's meeting at which the guy sitting next to me commented "This sure doesn't taste like any Saison I've ever had but it sells like hotcakes so I don't care." "Whom", in this case, was obviously the customers. Another possible "whom" would be the judges at GABF or, in the case of the home brewer, the judges at the competitions he enters, his spouse and friends and ultimately, himself. Accordingly, the brewer must experiment. I usually recommend starting with nothing but RO water to which a modest amount of calcium chloride has been added. This gives a basic foundation of some calcium paired with chloride which is almost always a benefit and thus nearly always produces a good beer. Stepping off from that point one quickly (time measured in units of brews so it can actually be a long time if one doesn't brew often) determines whether some sulfate should be added to the chloride or replace the chloride etc.

trentm Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2016, 01:04 PM   #10
Ryat66
Recipes 
 
Jan 2015
Hershey, PA
Posts: 111
Liked 12 Times on 11 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by xico View Post
what were the numbers? do you know the bicarbonate?
Sorry for the delay in response.

There's no bicarbonate in Tasty's water profile and just like him I use RO for my brewing. This was nothing more than an extreme experiment that happened to turn out really well, I didn't worry about mash pH, ideal flavor ions, etc. There's a million reasons why the water guys will pick this apart but it produced a tasty saison.



EDIT: I forgot to tell you that I used the saison recipe from Brewing Classic Styles and subbed Danstar Belle Saison for the yeast.

 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which water profile in Bru'n Water should I pick for Bavarian Helles Liquisky Brew Science 5 05-21-2012 08:58 PM
Water profile for Walmart Equate Spring Water 2011 flabyboy Brew Science 1 12-24-2011 10:23 PM
How important is Mg in my brewing water? Bil Brew Science 4 09-07-2010 04:55 PM
Water Profile for a Saison nicoharris Brew Science 1 05-24-2010 01:13 AM
Tucson, AZ water profile results from water dept. herbler Brew Science 40 02-02-2010 05:31 PM


Forum Jump