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Old 06-08-2012, 04:11 PM   #21
afr0byte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reno_eNVy View Post
.....huh?

The yeast don't get activated in the presence of CO2... they make it! Shaking your bottles doesn't absolutely nothing to help carb your beers. All your doing is causing possible oxidation off-flavors (read: cardboard.)
I don't know if they act differently in the bottle, but yeast take up all of the available oxygen within about 30 minutes in the ferementer, so I doubt it'd be much of a concern in the bottle. Granted, I'm also doubtful that shaking would help them carb faster.

 
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:17 PM   #22
Wynne-R
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There’s a big difference between dissolved oxygen in solution and the air in the headspace. Dissolved oxygen when you pitch is ideally 8-10 ppm, according to Chris White. Air is 21% oxygen by volume, orders of magnitude more oxygen than could be in the liquid.

I agree that shaking the bottle is a bad idea. You would knock some CO2 out of solution, making the yeast a bit happier in the short run, but in the long run you’re incorporating air into solution, which will cause oxidation.

I also agree that long secondaries are ill-advised for bottling. Why let the yeast go dormant and then feed them? You risk off flavors from the yeast going back into reproductive phase.

Secondary long enough to clear, then bottle, while your yeast are still happy and healthy.

 
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Old 06-08-2012, 05:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne-R
There’s a big difference between dissolved oxygen in solution and the air in the headspace. Dissolved oxygen when you pitch is ideally 8-10 ppm, according to Chris White. Air is 21% oxygen by volume, orders of magnitude more oxygen than could be in the liquid.

I agree that shaking the bottle is a bad idea. You would knock some CO2 out of solution, making the yeast a bit happier in the short run, but in the long run you’re incorporating air into solution, which will cause oxidation.

I also agree that long secondaries are ill-advised for bottling. Why let the yeast go dormant and then feed them? You risk off flavors from the yeast going back into reproductive phase.

Secondary long enough to clear, then bottle, while your yeast are still happy and healthy.
This! +1000 to everything you said.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:54 PM   #24
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Ok let me clarify, there is CO2 present in the beer from the yeast. When bottled and shaken as stated, the CO2 is released in the small gap between liquid and lid, and like when you rock your carboy, this helps the yeast because there is less CO2 in the liquid to hinder it. Yes the gas doesn't leave the bottle but it does leave the liquid just long enough for the yeast to produce more, hence the faster carbing.

 
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Colorado_Gold View Post
Ok let me clarify, there is CO2 present in the beer from the yeast. When bottled and shaken as stated, the CO2 is released in the small gap between liquid and lid,
Okay... so then where does the outside air in the headspace go? Dissolved into the beer. And then you can possibly have oxidation issues.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Colorado_Gold View Post
and like when you rock your carboy, this helps the yeast because there is less CO2 in the liquid to hinder it. Yes the gas doesn't leave the bottle but it does leave the liquid just long enough for the yeast to produce more, hence the faster carbing.
Okay I see your confusion here now (not meant to sound rude... sorry if it does.) Yeast don't get hindered by CO2 concentration either. They looooooove CO2 environments (ya know, as long as they aren't reproducing.)

Yeast, like most other microorganisms, will do what they can to create an environment that is hazardous to competing microorganisms. They do this by using all of the oxygen for reproduction (this may just be a handy side-benefit but it does discourage aerobic microorganisms) and creating CO2 and alcohol.

CO2 is not a limiting factor for yeast activity. It is simply a bi-product of fermentation that happens to be beneficial.


And rocking the carboy to knock out CO2 is not only ineffective (CO2 is heavy) but unless there is more sugar for the yeast to metabolize they won't create more CO2 to fill back up the headspace. That's why when we bottle condition we add a specific measured amount of sugar and once that sugar is gone the yeast will cease to make CO2, regardless of temp/headspace/concentration of yeast.
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Old 06-09-2012, 09:17 AM   #26
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The air that's in the bottle is gonna dissolve into the beer regardless, whether you shake it tentionaly or just by moving it from cellar to fridge. once the cap is on, its not going anywhere (unless of course, you purge each bottle with CO2 prior to filling or use o2 absorbing caps)

And shaking the carboy isn't a bad thing as long as the air lock is in place. No o2 can enter since CO2 is being forced out and it resuspends the yeast helping continue fermentation.

Just give the bottle shaking thing a try, I've never had any judge nor BrewHut employee mention any oxidation problems. After you bottle your next batch, just shake one bottle and set it aside to test. And if you have anything negative happen from it, I'll send you a beer to make up for it. What do you have to lose?

 
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:44 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou2row View Post
Just a thought to help process of eliminate: How are you cleaning and rinsing your bottles? If a little cleaner or chlorine is left, it could be stressing the yeast and it takes some extra time to do it's thing.

Are you getting a little sediment in your bottles within the first couple weeks? Are they clearing at this point, or not clearing until they have fully carbed?
Yes, getting some sediment by 1-2 weeks. I clean the bottles by soaking in oxyclean, then thoroughly rinse them. Then I run them through a dish washer with no soap on light wash and steam sanitize setting.

 
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Old 06-10-2012, 11:51 PM   #28
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Just a couple of things that come to mind... Once you have the bottles clean, use StarSan to sanitize them. Personally, I don't have a dishwasher and wouldn't trust one [even if I did have one] to sanitize beer bottles before filling them.
Another thing is how long are you chilling the bottle before pouring one? Try going a week and see how it is in the glass. If you've only been chilling overnight, or a few hours, that could be a major part of your 'issue'...
Depending on how close to the ABV tolerance of the yeast your fermenting to (an unknown item at this point), you could just have sluggish yeast that just need more time to get the carbonation job done.

Honestly, there's really only one way to carbonate within a human determined time frame. Many know of which I speak...
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