Weihenstephaner Vitus Recipes Thoughts

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slarkin712

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I'm going to brew a clone of Weihenstephaner Vitus Weizenbock this weekend. I've done some research, but haven't found a recipe that has been executed and reported back with results. So, here's the recipe I am going to use:

Batch size: 5.5 gal
OG: 1.070
Color: 6 SRM
IBU: 17
7.5 lb White Wheat Malt
3 lb Belgian Pilsener
3 lb German Vienna
3 oz Melanoidin Malt

1.5 oz Hallertau Mittelfruh (3.4% AA) 60 min

Yeast: Weihenstephaner 3068 (with yeast starter for appropriate cell count)

Mash: 148F 75 min
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: Pitch at 62F and raise to 68F as fermentation progresses. Cold condition at 45F for 3-4 weeks after fermentation has completed. Bottle to 3 vols CO2.

I'm hoping that the FG gets to 1.009-10, as this is about where Vitus gets to. I'm sure they use decoction, but this is my first attempt at this clone so I'll just stick with single infusion. I chose to go with Vienna malt, as it gives a nice bready, light sweetness that I think I taste in Vitus. I'm doing the cold conditioning because that is what Weihenstephaner does. They then bottle with lager yeast, but this info I'm unsure about. I'll probably just add priming sugar after cold conditioning and hope that it carbs.

Any thoughts on my recipe? Thanks.
 
This is a bit ironic for me.Yesterday I bought a single bottle of Vitus just to try,I thought
it was excellent.I am going to keep an eye on this thread to see where it goes.I wish
I could help you out here but cant.Maybe some of the other members will chime in.
I would like to give it a shot myself.

Cheers
 
Vitus is my favorite weizenbock. I like the amount of banana you get with the sweetness up front and dry finish. And it's surprisingly light for a 7.7% ABV beer. I plan to brew this every 4-5 months until I get a recipe that I am happy with. I'll either update this thread or start another once I've got some results.
 
This is a bit ironic for me.Yesterday I bought a single bottle of Vitus just to try,I thought
it was excellent.I am going to keep an eye on this thread to see where it goes.I wish
I could help you out here but cant.Maybe some of the other members will chime in.
I would like to give it a shot myself.

Cheers

I love when people say ironic instead of coincidental. Vitus is great. I can't wait to hear how this turns out. Well, actually I'll wait. Thats fine :)
 
Nothing substantial to add about the recipe, but a local place has this on tap and its a dangerously great beer. Let us know the outcome and good luck.
 
I love when people say ironic instead of coincidental. Vitus is great. I can't wait to hear how this turns out. Well, actually I'll wait. Thats fine :)

Maybe I should have used a litote.I only got a B in english 40 years ago.

:mug::mug:
 
Brewed this up yesterday. Almost everything went as planned. OG was 1.069 and pitched yeast at 62F. Had tons of hot and cold break in the boil kettle. So much that it kept clogging my braided SS filter on my dip tube. I had to take the filter off and just ran most of the break into the fermentor. I'm going to use a secondary for cold conditioning, so this shouldn't be much of an issue. And I'm going to top crop the yeast, so I won't need to worry about rinsing the trub out to save it. Airlock is bubbling away this morning!
 
Moved to secondary yesterday with the gravity at 1.011. Tasted the hydrometer sample, and it doesn't taste much like Vitus. There is hardly any noticeable banana, and not a lot of clove either. Something about my fermentation process must be off. My last weizen tasted a lot like this, with almost no banana and clove. I get some wheat flavor, a little bubble gum and strawberry, some tart sourness, and some tangy flavors. I'm wondering if I'm overpitching or over-aerating. I use yeastcalc.com to calculate cell counts and just pitch the normal ale rates. Perhaps this is too high for Wyeast 3068. Also, I use an aeration stone and pump pure oxygen for 45-60 seconds into the wort. Perhaps I'm not "stressing" the yeast out enough to get the banana flavors. Any thoughts?
 
Never used 3068 but fwiw I think you're right. As I understand it, hitting the wort with an O2 stone would be counter productive to ester production since it ultimately increases the total number of cells. Maybe a smaller starter with no O2 the next time around. For posterity do you know how many cells you calculated to pitch?

Also, how were temps? Did you let it rise to 68 per your initial recipe?
 
I pitched ~260 billion cells. I fermented at the stated temps. I pitched at 62F and did the bulk of the ferment at 62-64F. Then when it was almost finished I raised it to 68F over a couple of days. It was held at 68F for 5 days and then transferred to secondary.

I think next time I'll underpitch the yeast, maybe 150-170 billion cells, and then just give a short 10 sec blast of oxygen (or maybe none). My only concern is that it will not attenuate as well. I'd like for it to finish between 1.012 and 1.008, so that it has a dry finish like Vitus. Anyone get 3068 to attenuate well after underpitching?
 
All right, well I'm jumping on the bandwagon. The 3068 is spinning up, but will only be pitching 75% of the starter (~200m cells) and probably little to no 02 stone.

Likely the fermentation will be in 64-68 ambient air, which still should fall in the Wyeast range is 64-75. Hopefully that high of a temp doesn't swing the pendulum too far the other way.

Obviously you're not tasting finished product but how do you feel about your grain bill so far?
 
From a tasting a few weeks ago it had a good wheat flavor with some nice breadiness, but not overly malty. I was so disappointed in the lack of banana and cloves that I didn't really analyze the grain flavor as much. I'll taste another sample tonight and post. It's aging in a secondary at 50F and has been for almost 2 weeks. I'm doing this because Weihenstephaner does cold conditioning. I'm wondering if they do this in the bottles or in bulk.
After doing some reading over the weekend I think that the main issue is that I over aerated. I had the same lack of banana in my last hefe, but I was using the Safale wheat yeast. I'm thinking it wasn't the yeast, but over aeration. I'm already planning on brewing this again in August, and as many times as needed to get an accurate clone.
Also, I'd keep the ferm temps below 70F, which means your ambient will probably need to be below 64F. I made a hefe with 3068 and fermented at 75-77F to try to get more banana, but all I got was bubble gum, strawberry, and a little butterscotch flavor. Not good.
 
I just tasted a sample. It has a good sweetness, maltiness and wheat flavor. The sweetness is up front and then has a dry finish. The body is about right considering it is not carbonated. And the color is very close to Vitus. If I would change anything, I might replace some or all of the pilsner with vienna malt to add a little more maltiness. I think the grain bill is good, so right now I'm going to focus on the yeast derived flavors, which is the most important part of this beer.
 
Great thanks, Ill bump the Vienna % up a bit.

Reading Ed Worts Heffe thread for insight on 3068 temps and ester info. It looks like this yeast really puts out the heat - 8 to 10 degrees over ambient is a lot of BTU!
 
Yeah, you'll need some kind of temp control. It also makes a big krausen, so you might need a blowoff tube if you don't have a lot of headspace in your fermentor.
 
Brewed a lower gravity variation of this last night. Its out of style guidelines and wont be a true clone but hopefully guests can have 2 or 3 and not get a DUI.

I bumped up the Vienna % and scaled it up to 8 gallons of a hopefully less sneaky 1.055 beer. Its split in two 6g carboys both in a 62 degree swamp cooler. Pitch rates are the same for both but I plan on letting one free rise to 66-68 ambient after 48 hours for comparison.

I'll probably do the 7% version of this with the cake.

Did you do any water profile alterations?
 
No, I don't usually do any water modifications except for hoppier beers. Water in st. Louis is pretty good for brewing other than the chlorine/chloramines. How did you oxygenate your wort?
 
Chicago water is pretty solid too but beersmith has the water profile tool and it caught my eye. I made no alterations.

I waffled on using the O2 stone as the variable between carboys but ultimately skipped it for both. I went with the low tech carboy shake for aeration. The pitch rate was under by about 20% (for 1.055 sg 328m actual /403m BS rate)
 
Pulled a hyrdo sample off of the carboy that was in the 62 degree swamp cooler for the first 4 days and then ambient of 65 for the last 7. It's very promising. There is reasonable amount of banana and still underlying cloveishness. I'm digging the vienna / wheat combo so much that 1L is chilling to be force carbed to see how it works as hefe.
 
Finally bottled this over the weekend. Unfortunately, a sample still lacked the banana flavor. I tasted a little more clove than last time. Still just has a generic ester fruitiness. I'm going to brew this again in August. I'm going to split a batch into two fermentors. One I won't aerate at all (just the splash from emptying my kettle and then carrying into my basement) and use 75% of the standard pitching rate. The other one I'll probably give a 15-20 sec aeration with full pitching rate.
 
I'm attempting something similar...trying to replicate Ayinger Ur Weisse. Its very similar to Vitus. but a little darker, sweeter, but great malt banana and clove.

I used:

5# 10oz German Wheat malt
2# 13oz German Pilsner malt
1# 4oz CaraMunich II
4 oz Carafa II
.75oz Hallertau (60 min)
.25oz Hallertau (15 min)

Double Decoction - Acid rest at 111F and sacc rest at 154F. (Probably should have done 158...Ill do that next time). Made 5.5 gallons at 1.054 and split into (2) 2.75 batches using White Labs 300 Hefeweizen and the other 380 Hefeweizen IV. Pitched at 62 and let rise to 65 for the main ferment. Did not oxygenate.

Tasted both after a week in the primary and I was disappointed...both were "thin" and lacking malt character, very dry and minimal clove or banana.

I think next time I'm going to simplify...wheat and munich malt. Decoction mash still up in the air. It was a lot of work and not sure the results were worth it.

What am I missing?
 
Did a preliminary side by side with Vitus and my lower grav version. Its not fully carbed yet for a full eval but after a long primary the clarity is perfect and the nose has a similar amount of banana sweetness.

With the bump in Vienna, this makes an nice hefe by the way. Half of the 8 gal batch was gone thanks to an inlaw party 14 days after brew day. Most of the people were default BMC CAP drinkers and plenty of that was available but they kept coming back for "more of that heferwiser".
 
Good to hear it turned out well. I served a low strength version for a party that the BMC drinkers really enjoyed. That one had good banana flavor, but I haven't been able to recapture that since. I'm going to brew this again at the end of August. I'm trying to get a huge banana flavor without so much strawberry/bubblegum. I'll go with the carboy shake, pitch at 65F, and underpitch by 25%. It's got to work!
Did a preliminary side by side with Vitus and my lower grav version. Its not fully carbed yet for a full eval but after a long primary the clarity is perfect and the nose has a similar amount of banana sweetness.

With the bump in Vienna, this makes an nice hefe by the way. Half of the 8 gal batch was gone thanks to an inlaw party 14 days after brew day. Most of the people were default BMC CAP drinkers and plenty of that was available but they kept coming back for "more of that heferwiser".
 
Rebrew yet? My keg is about done for but it's finishing well. This beer is definitely better at higher volume of carbonation.
 
I should be doing a rebrew within the next month. A few weeks ago I did a hefe with OG 1.050 as a test of some pitching and oxygenation rates. I had not been getting the banana or clove in my hefes lately, so I decided to change it up a bit. I didn't oxygenate with my aeration stone, but rather poured between bucket a couple of times. I also underpitched by about 25%, and fermented at 65F. The beer came out with a nice light banana and clove flavors. So, I going to follow the same procedures for the Vitus rebrew and see how it goes. Also, I used a little more wheat in this past hefe and I really like it. I think I'm going to up the wheat % and drop either the vienna or pilsner %. This should give a lighter colored beer anyway, which should get me closer to Vitus.
 
Hi slarkin712,

Any updates on the Vitus clone? Did the recipe change from the one in your initial post? I'm looking to start this soon and wanted to make sure I had the most accurate recipe based on all the conversations between you and starman.

thanks.

Cheers,
 
Hi slarkin712,

Any updates on the Vitus clone? Did the recipe change from the one in your initial post? I'm looking to start this soon and wanted to make sure I had the most accurate recipe based on all the conversations between you and starman.

thanks.

Cheers,

I think the original recipe is a very good start. As mentioned you might add a little more vienna or a little more wheat and it'll be good. Still no rebrew for me yet, but as I stated before I mad a hefe with the right yeast flavor profile last month, so I'm ready to try the Vitus recipe again. I'm going to slightly under pitch the yeast, add no oxygen when in fermentor and pitch at 62 and let raise to 65-66F.
 
Yes, definitely underpitch this yeast. I use a smack pack for 5.5 gallons w/o the yeast starter. No need to boil this or hefe for 90 minutes....just 60 is fine. Make sure you have a very hard boil. Also, mash at 155 and ferment around 70º.

Mark
 
Thanks slarkin712.

Can you give me the malt breakdown with the successful recipe? E.g. Wheat malt X lbs etc.
 
I'd try fermenting this at 68-70. That's where I seem to get bannana esters with the 3068. A lot of people subscribe to the Jamil 62F ferementation theory, but I tried this several times and it made the most dissapointing hefes I've ever done; they just seem pretty subdued in the esters of the finished beer despite smelling awesome during fermentation. You could even split a batch and due half at 62 and half at 68 and decide for yourself.
 
Thanks slarkin712.

Can you give me the malt breakdown with the successful recipe? E.g. Wheat malt X lbs etc.

Just start with the recipe I posted in the first post. The grain flavors, body and color were very good with that recipe. The problem was the yeast derived flavors, which are the most important. As said before do not oxygenate the wort or very little. Pitch healthy yeast, with nearly the correct cell count. And do the bulk of fermentation between 65-68F.
 
Thanks slarkin,

Sorry I may have already asked this, but is the original recipe an extract recipe or all-grain?

If it is all-grain, how can I convert it to extract?
 
The original recipe is all grain. If you want to make it with malt extract you're going to have a hard time getting the vienna malt flavor. You'll probably need to use munich malt extract, but it will be a little too dark. For a 5 gallon batch I would use 8 lbs wheat malt liquid extract and 1.5 lbs munich liquid malt extract. Like I said it will be darker than Vitus, but I think it could make a good beer. The conversion from all grain was done like this.
Wheat LME is 65% wheat malt and 35% pilsner
Munich LME is 50% munich malt and 50% pale malt
The recipe is 55% wheat malt, 22% pilsner malt, 22% vienna malt, and 1% melanoidin. With 8 lbs wheat LME you get 37*8=296 gravity points and 1.5 lbs munich LME gives 36*1.5=54 points. So the OG would be 350 points/5 gallons = 1.070. The percentages are 8*.65/9.5 = 55% wheat, 1.5*.5/9.5 = 8%, and (8*.35+1.5*.5)/9.5 = 37% pale/pilsner. So there is a little higher percentage of pilsner/pale, but using equal amounts of munich and pale/pilsner would make it too dark and may give too much munich flavor. Munich is like a toastier, breadier, less soft version of vienna. And you don't need melanoidin, as LME already has some of those flavors.
Hope that helps.
 
Awesome! Thanks slarkin712.
This helps greatly and your conversions make a lot of sense. I am new to brewing so I haven't graduated to all-grain brewing just yet. Only just finished brewing my third batch yesterday (AHS Pliny the Elder clone - the hopping schedule was a blast!) I think after I brew my first maibock I will give this a try as an extract recipe. Ill post results as soon as I brew the batch.
Cheers
 
I think the original recipe is a very good start. As mentioned you might add a little more vienna or a little more wheat and it'll be good. Still no rebrew for me yet, but as I stated before I mad a hefe with the right yeast flavor profile last month, so I'm ready to try the Vitus recipe again. I'm going to slightly under pitch the yeast, add no oxygen when in fermentor and pitch at 62 and let raise to 65-66F.

ayo slark,

anyword on a successful vitus weizenbock re-do? i've gotten ahold of some hallertau hersbrucker and want to give this style a try!

also, curious to see that's there's no munich malt in your original grain bill...looks like wheat and munich are pretty standard for weizenbocks...
 
The rebrew of this is going to be my next batch, hopefully in the next 2-3 weeks. In regards to style, Vitus doesn't fit the bjcp weizenbock guidelines. It is much lighter (SRM 6), and doesn't have the dark fruit or light chocolate flavor that you get from other Weizenbocks. Vitus is more like a scaled up weiss, whereas a typical weizenbock is a scaled up dunkelweiss. So the main reason for not using Munich or any other dark malts is to keep the color light. I added Vienna to get some light maltiness and a little biscuit flavor.
 
I may be out of my element here but if you are looking for a more pronounced banana and clove nose with the hefe yeasts, fermentation shouldn't drop below 68F and should go as high as 74F or so.

I just did a simple Weissbier with German Wheat, German Pilsner and a touch of Aromatic Malt. Threw in 1 ounce of Hallertau split 25-75 between bittering and aroma. I pitched 2 x Wyeast 3068 and fermented right around 71F.

The product was a solid malt backbone with a smooth, not overwhelming, banana nose followed with a slight clove. Ultimately my best beer to date and I am an IPA fan :p

Either way, I have found temps closer to 72F produce the notes I like in my wheat beers. I am not a fan of the banana bread flavor... too sweet. Subtle notes are all I am looking for. End Tangent!
 
The more I think about it, I'm leaning toward fermenting warmer. I'm just leary, as I brewed a weiss without temp control once that got up to 77F and I thought it tasted terrible. It had bubblegum, strawberry, and butterscotch flavors. Yuck. Maybe I'll pitch at 66F and let raise to 70F and hold for a few days, and then ramp up to 72F to help it finish.
 
hey slarkin,

would you mind posting your most successful grain bill to date for this recipe? you mentioned earlier in your posts that you adjusted your vienna and pilsner from the original recipe and got better results that way.

also, did you use a yeast starter?
 
brewed this beer with a buddy last weekend. increased the vienna a 1/2 pound and decreased the pilsner by 1/2 pound per the previous suggestions in the thread.

pitched 1L starter of wyeast 3068 at roughly 62F. blew off like crazy for 2 straight days. majority of the vigorous activity was at 68F. its dropped down to 66F now with still some airlock activity. almost been 1 week in the primary now.

planning on doing an additional week in primary @ 66-68F and then considering cold conditioning in secondary for 1-2 weeks. slarkin, you have any carbing probs after the long cold conditioning?

-max
 

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