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Old 05-10-2012, 09:01 PM   #11
jfowler1
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Mar 2009
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I simply liked the results of the hot whirlpool method better.

I found the hop flavor was more rounded, and I felt I was getting a better use of those flame out hops. To say you don't get substantial bitterness in the whirlpool is incorrect. For example, Jamil now uses nothing but whirlpool hops in his commercial example of Evil Twin, and I believe his beer has been measured to about 45 IBU. I'd call that pretty substantial. In fairness, the earlier poster was right in saying that at 160F you are below the point of isomerization, so there will be virtually no bitterness gained at that point in his suituation.

However, if it is aroma you are after, the dry hop is where you get it, not in late additions. I believe a great deal of that aroma you worked to add is blown off during active fermentation, so for my money, I'll load up on the dry hop for aroma.

 
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:04 AM   #12
bobbrews
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Jan 2011
Sierra, Nevada
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It also depends on the amount of hops you add...

4.00 oz. at 10 minutes may yield 140 IBUs

1.25 oz. at 60 minutes may yield the same 140 IBUs

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Old 05-12-2012, 07:42 PM   #13
coypoo
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Jun 2010
Cary, NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfowler1
To say you don't get substantial bitterness in the whirlpool is incorrect. For example, Jamil now uses nothing but whirlpool hops in his commercial example of Evil Twin, and I believe his beer has been measured to about 45 IBU. I'd call that pretty substantial. In fairness, the earlier poster was right in saying that at 160F you are below the point of isomerization, so there will be virtually no bitterness gained at that point in his suituation.
How do you then calculate the IBUs using BeerSmith?
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:32 PM   #14
jfowler1
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Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coypoo View Post
How do you then calculate the IBUs using BeerSmith?
Well...you don't.

Formulas are very flawed - let me show you why.

6 Gallon IPA Recipe
70% efficiency, Rager for bitterness

15 lbs 2-row
1 lb C40
1 oz magnum @60
.5 oz Centennial @30
1 oz Centennial @10
1 oz Centennial @1
WLP001

7.1% ABV (good)
1.015 FG (good)
8 SRM (good)
89 IBU (too hoppy for style - IPA style range is 40-70)

Why change the recipe to fit the style when you can just change the bittering formula?

6 Gallon IPA Recipe
70% efficiency, Tinseth for bitterness

15 lbs 2-row
1 lb C40
1 oz magnum @60
.5 oz Centennial @30
1 oz Centennial @10
1 oz Centennial @1

7.1% ABV (good)
1.015 FG (good)
8 SRM (good)
69 IBU (good)

Now my IPA is to style!

That rant is not very helpful, but it does make a point.

So to be more helpful (like I mentioned in an earlier post) if you want to use long hot whirlpools but still want to come up with some type of IBU number through a formula to speak in a language you are used to, enter your recipe into a program, then increase the minutes of each hop addition by the length of the whirlpool you are doing.

So if your recipe was:
1 oz at 60
.5 oz at 30
1 oz at 10
1 oz at 1

but you want to use a 30 minute whirlpool,

change the calculation to:
1 oz at 90
.5 oz at 60
1 oz at 40
1 oz at 11

You will see the bitterness calculation you typically use skyrocket, and honestly, if you brewed the same recipe twice, once with chilling at zero, once with long hot whirlpool, you'll notice the effort with the long hot whirlpool will taste dramatically more bitter....no matter what the number on the recipe says. For that reason, I say that if you are going to employ a long hot whirlpool (hot being around 200F), roll back the quantities on those first couple additions, and just taste how much bitterness the long whirlpool gives you.

 
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Old 05-13-2012, 04:12 AM   #15
coypoo
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Jun 2010
Cary, NC
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I get all that, I thought you were saying the whirlpool additions gave you a lot of bitterness
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Old 05-13-2012, 04:45 AM   #16
Voodoo_Child
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Dec 2011
Scranton, Pennsylvania
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What if one were to remove the boil hops via hop sock, then chill to 100 - 150 and add flameout hops for hop stand?

Wouldn't the removing the bittering, flavor, and aroma additions decrease or stop the isomerization?
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Old 05-13-2012, 12:02 PM   #17
14thstreet
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Apr 2009
Milwaukee, WI
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I have to believe that isomerization is slower after flameout/during the whirlpool, but it still happens. It's aided by boiling as insoluble alpha acids become solubilized by the convection currents of boiling and then isomerized (made bitter) by the heat and pH. I would say removing the kettle hops after flameout may help depending on how long you hopstand and if the wort was moving (whirlpool). Commercial-sized breweries have reported 15-22% utilization in a 60 minute whirlpool but I'd bet its smaller in a 5 gallon batch.

I have done a couple whirlpool/hopstands myself and believe I have gotten a bit more bitterness (5-10 IBU) but these were all pale ales on the bitter side anyway and were dryhopped, which masked any aromatic contribution of this technique. What I did notice though was all the hop aroma leaving my primary fermenter!
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