Coldbreak Brewing HERMS Giveaway!

HomeBrewSupply AMCYL Brew Kettle Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > A real biere de champagne
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-30-2012, 03:59 AM   #1
rexbanner
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DC
Posts: 1,379
Liked 96 Times on 69 Posts
Likes Given: 91

Default A real biere de champagne

I was thinking about trying to make a serious biere de champagne. 15% ABV. I still want it to taste good, though. Any ideas of how to go about this? I was thinking of basically a huge Belgian golden strong fermented with an ale yeast and then finished off with champagne yeast. There's a podcast with a wine guy, Shea Comfort, where he talks about how you can use convertase (sp?) to free up some or even all of the sugars in wort that wine yeast can't ferment. I was thinking of using either WLP530 or Brett brux to ferment the first have of the beer, and when they give up, adding the convertase and a champagne yeast to take it the rest of the way. Champagne yeast is neutral so I think a flavorful primary yeast would be necessary to avoid a bland, boozy beer. Any thoughts?


__________________
Peep my nanobrewery: http://crookedrunbrewing.com

Crooked Run Brewing: Traditional ales, local ingredients
rexbanner is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 04:59 AM   #2
ReverseApacheMaster
Registered User
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 4,887
Liked 233 Times on 194 Posts

Default

Brett isn't good for that kind of primary fermentation.

There's people around here who have pushed some of the common brewing strains up to 15% or higher. Usually you're looking at making multiple sugar additions during fermentation to push it that high.


ReverseApacheMaster is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 05:19 AM   #3
rexbanner
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DC
Posts: 1,379
Liked 96 Times on 69 Posts
Likes Given: 91

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReverseApacheMaster View Post
Brett isn't good for that kind of primary fermentation.

There's people around here who have pushed some of the common brewing strains up to 15% or higher. Usually you're looking at making multiple sugar additions during fermentation to push it that high.
Why isn't brett good for that? Also I really want to try the wine yeast thing, bc once I figure out the right amount of convertase to add then it's an easy beer to make again.
__________________
Peep my nanobrewery: http://crookedrunbrewing.com

Crooked Run Brewing: Traditional ales, local ingredients
rexbanner is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 11:44 AM   #4
ploppythesausage
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posts: 109
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

As far as I know, a Biere de Champagne is made using the methode champanoise to ferment beer. This involves bottling the beer or wine with priming sugar and fresh yeast and a crown cap and placing them slightly tilted, neck-down, in a rack so that the yeast begins to collect in the neck. You then rotate the bottles a few times a day to collect all of the yeast as it ages. When this is complete you freeze the neck of the bottle and remove the cap. The pressure forces out the frozen yeast. You then recap the bottle quickly to maintain the pressure and carbonate.

I would use an ale yeast to ferment a big beer and add champagne yeast with priming sugar and bottle. But without the methode champanois it's not going to be a bier de champagne.
ploppythesausage is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 02:07 PM   #5
ReverseApacheMaster
Registered User
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 4,887
Liked 233 Times on 194 Posts

Default

What ploppy said is an important consideration. If you're just trying for one of those high end, high ABV blond ales it's not going to be a bier de champagne without the methode. It's just going to be a big blonde ale.

As a primary fermenter, brett doesn't superattenuate. It will ferment exactly like a regular ale strain, if you can even get it to ferment that much sugar at once, and then knock out. It will leave all the complex sugars behind. So you'll end up with the same thing as fermenting with a neutral strain but you'll take on more risk of a stuck fermentation and maybe end up with a hint of brett character.
ReverseApacheMaster is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 02:59 PM   #6
rexbanner
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DC
Posts: 1,379
Liked 96 Times on 69 Posts
Likes Given: 91

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReverseApacheMaster View Post
What ploppy said is an important consideration. If you're just trying for one of those high end, high ABV blond ales it's not going to be a bier de champagne without the methode. It's just going to be a big blonde ale.

As a primary fermenter, brett doesn't superattenuate. It will ferment exactly like a regular ale strain, if you can even get it to ferment that much sugar at once, and then knock out. It will leave all the complex sugars behind. So you'll end up with the same thing as fermenting with a neutral strain but you'll take on more risk of a stuck fermentation and maybe end up with a hint of brett character.
Isn't it just a way to remove yeast? I'm not too concerned about that, just with making a high abv highly carbonated effervescent ale.

Also, there's no risk of a stuck fermentation using the method I described. I think some brett brux character could be nice, too.
__________________
Peep my nanobrewery: http://crookedrunbrewing.com

Crooked Run Brewing: Traditional ales, local ingredients
rexbanner is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 03:20 PM   #7
ploppythesausage
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Edinburgh, UK
Posts: 109
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

I'm not sure what else it contributes other than being a way to reduce yeast. though this probably has more of an impact in wine making than beer making. But it's not champagne beer unless it's done this way (St Bernardus do a 6% dubbel using this method. It's called Grottenbier and it's nice and dry)
ploppythesausage is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 06:46 PM   #8
ReverseApacheMaster
Registered User
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 4,887
Liked 233 Times on 194 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexbanner View Post
Isn't it just a way to remove yeast? I'm not too concerned about that, just with making a high abv highly carbonated effervescent ale.

Also, there's no risk of a stuck fermentation using the method I described. I think some brett brux character could be nice, too.
Have you ever done an all brett beer?
ReverseApacheMaster is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2012, 10:46 PM   #9
rexbanner
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DC
Posts: 1,379
Liked 96 Times on 69 Posts
Likes Given: 91

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReverseApacheMaster View Post
Have you ever done an all brett beer?
Yes. I have some washed brett b ready to roll in my fridge. I think it's a good flavor and I think this might be a way to add some complexity to the beer, but I think a Belgian strain would work as well. I just don't think that a 100% wine yeast fermented beer would be interesting enough, having read about others that have tried that. The supposed fruitiness that wine yeast contributes was not enough to be all that interesting of beer, from what I read.
__________________
Peep my nanobrewery: http://crookedrunbrewing.com

Crooked Run Brewing: Traditional ales, local ingredients
rexbanner is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2012, 03:45 AM   #10
ReverseApacheMaster
Registered User
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 4,887
Liked 233 Times on 194 Posts

Default

Going into a potentially 15% beer you're going to need a huge starter to get that brett going. Even with a huge starter I would be concerned about it giving you the finger and taking a nap during fermentation. I also wonder how long it would take to get stable. Even in a single digit ABV beer it takes a couple months to stabilize.

I'd also think if there's some sugars or starches left behind by the convertase and champagne yeast might kick off an extended brett tertiary fermentation. Although aging is probably something you'll want to do anyway but something else to consider.


ReverseApacheMaster is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Champagne yeast rewster451 General Techniques 10 05-25-2013 01:43 PM
***Champagne bubbles in beer?*** Brewpenguin General Techniques 3 06-13-2009 05:13 PM
Champagne Beer Jimbob General Techniques 16 07-27-2008 09:17 PM
Should I pitch more yeast, champagne maybe fork General Techniques 9 06-18-2008 01:06 AM
Help with Champagne Yeast. greenandgold General Techniques 4 12-03-2006 02:24 AM


Forum Jump

Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS