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Old 05-03-2012, 02:09 PM   #21
TheH2
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Jun 2007
Arlington, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
Except that nearly every malt out there is so modified that a protein rest is not only unnecessary, it can be detrimental.
I've heard this on here but two of my best beers had a protein rest. One used a lot of wheat malt (Weizenbock) which did very well in a homebrew competition last week and the other was an ESB which had great mouth feel and very good head retention - I didn't enter it into a competition. It may have nothing to do with the protein rest and maybe has more to do with me paying more attention during the brewing process but it certainly helped my beers.

For the Weizenbock I did a 15 minute rest at 133. The ESB was almost 4 years ago but I probably did the same thing. Next time I do the Weizenbock (so many beers to brew and so little time) I'll probably try a decoction for the fun of it.

 
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:17 PM   #22
frankieboy007
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Oct 2007
Denison, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
Except that nearly every malt out there is so modified that a protein rest is not only unnecessary, it can be detrimental.
Not sure how it can be detrimental, maybe you could elaborate. Every batch that I have used a protein rest has turned out really good, so I can't agree with that notion without some data to support it.

 
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Old 05-03-2012, 03:31 PM   #23
TheH2
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Jun 2007
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Originally Posted by frankieboy007 View Post
Not sure how it can be detrimental, maybe you could elaborate. Every batch that I have used a protein rest has turned out really good, so I can't agree with that notion without some data to support it.
Kind of hard to have data to support mouth feel and head retention, no?

Of course as I stated in my post, maybe it has something to do with paying more attention to the brewing process but don't just throw it at because someone said it doesn't help. Give it a shot. Obviously people make great beer without it but maybe you could make better beer with it.

I will probably continue to do it for maltier beers since I've had good (not scientific) success.

 
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:06 PM   #24
frankieboy007
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Oct 2007
Denison, Texas
Posts: 45

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheH2 View Post
Kind of hard to have data to support mouth feel and head retention, no?

Of course as I stated in my post, maybe it has something to do with paying more attention to the brewing process but don't just throw it at because someone said it doesn't help. Give it a shot. Obviously people make great beer without it but maybe you could make better beer with it.

I will probably continue to do it for maltier beers since I've had good (not scientific) success.
True, but I agree that it has helped my beers, so I'm not knocking anything you said. I pln to continue using it in my brewing process, I was just wondering what Denny ment by the protein rest possibly being detrimental, maybe data was a poor choice of words.

 
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:08 PM   #25
frankieboy007
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Oct 2007
Denison, Texas
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btw, the 'A' on my keyboard is screwy, hence the poor spelling, lol!

 
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Old 05-04-2012, 04:30 AM   #26
FishNChips
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May 2011
Denver, smack in the middle, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankieboy007

True, but I agree that it has helped my beers, so I'm not knocking anything you said. I pln to continue using it in my brewing process, I was just wondering what Denny ment by the protein rest possibly being detrimental, maybe data was a poor choice of words.
Have been doing some additional research and this is what i came up with. The two active enzymes in the protein rest are peptidase and protease. Protease is responsible for the break down of large proteins that cause haze and reduce head retention. In modified malts (which is most malts), these large proteins are ALREADY broken down in the malting process into smaller amino acid chains which aid in head retention and body. The peptidase will break these guys down further into nutes for your yeast. So in short....you end up losing beneficial proteins when you do a protein rest on modified malts, but get healthier yeast...i guess

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/enzymes.html

Of course...there are so many factors in brewing that it might take a professional to notice the difference. But hey...the science is there. Only real way to know is to brew the same beer twice, one with a protein rest and one without, and do a side by side comparison. I dunno if i care enough to do that haha...

 
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:32 AM   #27
Sentinel
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Feb 2012
Cape Town, South Africa
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I read somewhere that when using high wheat content (such as wit/weiss) that the protein rest helps with preventing stuck sparges. Do I have my info mixed up.

 
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:50 AM   #28
pvtschultz
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Feb 2010
New Berlin, Wisconsin
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I use a 20 minute 133 degree protein rest on my American Style lagers and Ales that use 6-Row as a base malt with a bunch of flaked corn. I also do a 15 minute 122 degree protein rest for my dark German lagers (Dunkel and Schwarzbier) with large bills of Munich and Pilsen malts. I'm not sure where I got the temps and times from, but put them together from reading award winning recipes across the interweb.

I don't bother with my normal Rahr 2-Row pale malt though, for the exact reasons mentioned before.
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishNChips View Post
Have been doing some additional research and this is what i came up with. The two active enzymes in the protein rest are peptidase and protease. Protease is responsible for the break down of large proteins that cause haze and reduce head retention. In modified malts (which is most malts), these large proteins are ALREADY broken down in the malting process into smaller amino acid chains which aid in head retention and body. The peptidase will break these guys down further into nutes for your yeast. So in short....you end up losing beneficial proteins when you do a protein rest on modified malts, but get healthier yeast...i guess

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/enzymes.html

Of course...there are so many factors in brewing that it might take a professional to notice the difference. But hey...the science is there. Only real way to know is to brew the same beer twice, one with a protein rest and one without, and do a side by side comparison. I dunno if i care enough to do that haha...
It is not quite as exacting as this makes it sound. A lot of the protein is broken down, but not all of it. If that were the case, than doing any sort of protein rest would result in thinner beers and this is not always the case.

In the intact seed, the various hydrolytic enzymes are not uniformly dispersed throughout the seed so it is highly unlikely that all of the storage proteins have been uniformly chewed up. Yes, a lot is, but not all. Once the grain is milled, THEN we can get uniform exposure of proteins to the hydrolytic enzymes - same for starch and the amylases. There is still some room for tweaking if that is what you want to do.

The differences between p-rest and no p-rest can be subtle, but that can be the difference between a great beer, and a phenomenal beer
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:05 AM   #30
FishNChips
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May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I read somewhere that when using high wheat content (such as wit/weiss) that the protein rest helps with preventing stuck sparges. Do I have my info mixed up.
I think you are referring to the beta rest, which is at a lower temp around 110F. Unmalted grains like wheat and oats have beta-glucans that cause stickiness in the mash if they arent broken down ahead of time.

 
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