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Old 12-26-2012, 05:15 PM   #61
scaesare
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Well, after 2 weeks in the primary fermenter and a week in a glass secondary, racked this over to a keg this past weekend, and have been gassing it in the fridge.

I followed the recipe in the initial post. So far, I'm rather put-off buy the metallic "twang" as I've seen it described here. It also feels rather thin. Neither of these seem typical with other stouts I've had.

Re-reading this thread, it seems that sorghum characteristically has a bit of a metallic taste. I also saw the candi syrup mentioned as a possible source?

So I'm a little disappointed, because I see several descriptions of this recipe here that seem to indicate that any twang is not very over powering.. so I'm not sure if my batch is different, or perhaps I'm just more sensitive.

I might try again with the following modifications:

1) Use the later suggestion to use more oats (i.e. maybe double the initial 1lb amount)

2) Wet-roast the oats and allow to mellow longer (I only had ~24 hours)

3) Consider substituting some rice syrup for some of the sorghum?



Open to any suggestions...

-sc


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Old 12-29-2012, 02:27 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post
I followed the recipe in the initial post. So far, I'm rather put-off buy the metallic "twang" as I've seen it described here. It also feels rather thin. Neither of these seem typical with other stouts I've had.

Re-reading this thread, it seems that sorghum characteristically has a bit of a metallic taste. I also saw the candi syrup mentioned as a possible source?

So I'm a little disappointed, because I see several descriptions of this recipe here that seem to indicate that any twang is not very over powering.. so I'm not sure if my batch is different, or perhaps I'm just more sensitive.

I might try again with the following modifications:

1) Use the later suggestion to use more oats (i.e. maybe double the initial 1lb amount)

2) Wet-roast the oats and allow to mellow longer (I only had ~24 hours)

3) Consider substituting some rice syrup for some of the sorghum?

Open to any suggestions...
-sc
1. It's still young. I bottle my beers and give them at least 3 weeks to carb. If you're drinking it basically straight out of secondary, it's probably too young. Give it a month.

2. What brand of candi syrup did you use? Did you do a 3-gallon batch (as in the original) or did you scale up the recipe to 5 gallons?

3. Did you add the sorghum at the beginning of the boil or the end? What about the candi syrup?

4. Did you do a 60-minute or 90-minute boil, and did you do a full-wort boil or partial + top-off?

5. How much experience do you have in tasting gluten-free beer?


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Old 12-29-2012, 10:41 PM   #63
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This is probably not the best recipe to start with if you're new to gluten free brewing. A single-hop IPA is probably a much better option, and will give you a sense of the sorghum "twang" (though the hops tend to compliment it quite well).

When I made this, it turned out fairly well (my wife really liked it), although it did feel a little thin, and the head wasn't quite as impressive as I'd hoped for. However, like you, I dry roasted the oats rather than wet roasting -- you're pretty much guaranteed to get better results (more Maillard reactions = more browning) with wet roasting. I also may have not put enough maltodextrin in?

My main objection may have come from having made the candi syrup myself (using DAP+sugar). It ended up tasting a bit cola like, which if you think about it, makes some sense, since cola contains coffee (roastiness), caramel and phosphoric acid. A friend made a batch using DAP syrup as almost the only fermentable, and, well, I wasn't very impressed (he added vanilla, so it really tasted like hopped cola).

I did use some of what I learned from this batch to make a very nice amber IPA, using just a small amount of syrup for colour and flavour, and more maltodextrin. The head on that came out a lot better, and it had some delicious light caramel notes contrasting with the hops.

For my next stout, I plan on malting and roasting up some quinoa and using that to darken it (with rice/sorghum extract as the base).

This guy tried out various grains, and white quinoa seemed to roast up the darkest: http://aggieotis.blogspot.ca/2008/10...ee-grains.html
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:53 PM   #64
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http://www.candisyrup.com/products.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
1. It's still young. I bottle my beers and give them at least 3 weeks to carb. If you're drinking it basically straight out of secondary, it's probably too young. Give it a month.
Yeah, I opted to pull it from my current fridge (which has room for two kegs), and swap in another batch and let this one sit a bit. After a week on gas it hsan't changed much.

I will note, however, that of the other batches I and some friends have done, the secondary serves tame harsh tastes a little faster. So, when I tasted from the secondary, it was really 2 full weeks after the primary had finished activity. In addition ot racking over to the secondary, I extracted enough to do a couple of samples... it didn't change much.

So we'll see what age does to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
2. What brand of candi syrup did you use? Did you do a 3-gallon batch (as in the original) or did you scale up the recipe to 5 gallons?
It appears that "Candi Syrup Inc." is the name of the manufacturer of what I used, the D-180 as the recipe called for: http://www.candisyrup.com/products.html

I did a 3 gal. batch as per the original recipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
3. Did you add the sorghum at the beginning of the boil or the end? What about the candi syrup?
Sorghum at end (flame-out) and candi syrup at very beginning (60mins remaining), as per recipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
4. Did you do a 60-minute or 90-minute boil, and did you do a full-wort boil or partial + top-off?
60 min boil. The recipe sisn't specify otherwise, and it calls out 60 mins for timings of te longest ingredients, so I assume that was correct? I did a full boil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
5. How much experience do you have in tasting gluten-free beer?
Only a moderate amount. I have plenty of experience tasting beer though. I've had half a dozen folks taste it, including 2 other folks who brew along with my wife who has the gluten sensitivity. Everybody notices the bitter metallic taste, however most also agree it's got a good "base".

I'm not trying to knock your recipe... on the contrary I appreciate the efforts to get some good GF alternatives devoloped, and your taking the time to respond.

What I don't have is much experience with GF alternative ingredients, so I'm not sure what to expect. Maybe this taste is what you would normally get from these ingredients, and so there's nothing "wrong". But, given the comments in the remainder of the thread, it appears that other folks are sugesting substitutions that could be made to to reduce some of the twang. I'm trying to see if anybody has been successful in doing so.

Thanks.

-sc
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:01 PM   #65
scaesare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneillkza View Post
This is probably not the best recipe to start with if you're new to gluten free brewing. A single-hop IPA is probably a much better option, and will give you a sense of the sorghum "twang" (though the hops tend to compliment it quite well).

When I made this, it turned out fairly well (my wife really liked it), although it did feel a little thin, and the head wasn't quite as impressive as I'd hoped for. However, like you, I dry roasted the oats rather than wet roasting -- you're pretty much guaranteed to get better results (more Maillard reactions = more browning) with wet roasting. I also may have not put enough maltodextrin in?

My main objection may have come from having made the candi syrup myself (using DAP+sugar). It ended up tasting a bit cola like, which if you think about it, makes some sense, since cola contains coffee (roastiness), caramel and phosphoric acid. A friend made a batch using DAP syrup as almost the only fermentable, and, well, I wasn't very impressed (he added vanilla, so it really tasted like hopped cola).

I did use some of what I learned from this batch to make a very nice amber IPA, using just a small amount of syrup for colour and flavour, and more maltodextrin. The head on that came out a lot better, and it had some delicious light caramel notes contrasting with the hops.

For my next stout, I plan on malting and roasting up some quinoa and using that to darken it (with rice/sorghum extract as the base).

This guy tried out various grains, and white quinoa seemed to roast up the darkest: http://aggieotis.blogspot.ca/2008/10...ee-grains.html
OK, thanks for the feedback, so it sounds like my batch is at least "in the ballpark" of what other folks are producing as well.

So, along with your post, I've seen a few folks talking about alternatives like rice extract. Is this a substitute for sorghum, typically, or candi syrup?

I guess I'm tryin to figure out the interactions. It seems to me that we are substituing oats (or other grains) in the steeping phase to get the flavor of a grain in the wort. Then we are substituting another sugar base (sorghum and/or candi syrup) instead of a malt extract for the yeast to frement. So why choose sorghum, candi syrup, or both? What are the characteristics of them such that we combine both rather than use one over the other? Tradeoffs?

Thanks.

-sc
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:57 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scaesare View Post
http://www.candisyrup.com/products.html

Yeah, I opted to pull it from my current fridge (which has room for two kegs), and swap in another batch and let this one sit a bit. After a week on gas it hsan't changed much.
Well, I know nothing about kegging, so perhaps aging it in the keg won't do much.

Quote:
It appears that "Candi Syrup Inc." is the name of the manufacturer of what I used, the D-180 as the recipe called for.
Okay, good. That's the same stuff I used.

Quote:
Sorghum at end (flame-out) and candi syrup at very beginning (60mins remaining), as per recipe.
So, I just looked at the recipe posted here and compared it with my notes, and I guess I made some modifications on brew day that I didn't post here. The recipe posted here was a "rough draft", the actual recipe I used is here:
http://beyondbarley.blogspot.com/201...eal-stout.html

3 lbs of sorghum, not 2, and I did a 90-minute boil, not a 60-minute one. Guess I better edit the first post! Sorry about that, mate! Those are some pretty significant changes.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:44 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igliashon View Post
So, I just looked at the recipe posted here and compared it with my notes, and I guess I made some modifications on brew day that I didn't post here. The recipe posted here was a "rough draft", the actual recipe I used is here:
http://beyondbarley.blogspot.com/201...eal-stout.html

3 lbs of sorghum, not 2, and I did a 90-minute boil, not a 60-minute one. Guess I better edit the first post! Sorry about that, mate! Those are some pretty significant changes.
Ah, good to know..., and thanks for the link to your blog. I may go ahead and try this again with those modifications.

So using MORE soghum doesn't add more to the metallic taste?

Also, I note that in post #34 of this thread, you said:

Quote:
I might recommend using more grains than I did. 2 lbs per 3 gallons gave me just a little bit of flavor, I'd up it to at least 1 lb per gallon,
So, that sounds like you ised two pounds of oats for your modified batch, but were recommending three. Yet your original and updated recipes both still call for one lb. Do you have a final amount you ultimately decided upon?

Thanks again.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:21 PM   #68
igliashon
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Yeah, I definitely only used 1 pound. I don't know where I ever got the idea that I used 2, it's not written that way in any of my notes. I suppose it's possible that I did...I mean, I know I used 4 lbs of grain in my RIS, but that was buckwheat and black rice, and I may have thrown some amylase in after steeping due to worries about starchiness. In any case I did a re-brew of NNS with 1.5 lbs of oats, and I'm gonna recommend that if you do use more, you only roast 1 lb super-dark, and just do a light toast on the rest. 1.5 lbs of super-dark-roasted oats gave me a lot of dry starchy burnt toast flavor that was not what I was after. It also left a lot of unfermentables in the beer, my FG was something like 1.020 after 6 weeks in primary, even though I used yeast nutrient and even did a second fermentation with some concentrated cherry juice.

I guess I've got a ways to go on reproducibility....

But in any case, adding more sorghum doesn't seem to add more to the metallic taste. In my experience, higher-gravity brews (around 6%-7% ABV) don't have as much of that metallic taste as lower-gravity brews (4%-5% ABV), even with an almost all-sorghum bill. Can't tell ya why.

Oh, and another tip I've heard but not tried to reduce the metallic taste is to add some DAP to the boil. Apparently something about the FAN it adds does something good for the flavor....
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:04 PM   #69
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Cool, thanks.. I'll aim for the 1.5lbs with the split roasting darkness you mentioned... and maybe I'll try a little DAP just for good measure.

When I do it again, I'll take notes a gain and report back for the benefit of the group.

Appreciate your reponses... oh, and I has born and raised in Hayward.

-sc
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:03 PM   #70
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How would you suggest scaling this up for 5 gallons?

I was thinking:
3.3lbs Sorghum
3lbs BRS
3lbs D180

2lbs Quick Oats (1lb roasted dark, 1lb roasted light)

Your thoughts?


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