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Old 04-20-2012, 06:50 PM   #61
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All I am asking the "OMG HOMEBREW CAN KILL YOU I CANNOT BE CONVINCED OTHERWISE, FACTS BE DAMNED" contrarians is to show me one real world case. Not 32 over ten plus years, just one.

If you find one such case, I'll roll my eyes at you and ignore you for the sensationalist that you are, but I will freely admit that the "homebrew CANNOT hurt you" argument falls into the realm of "don't worry about it", not "the chance is zero."
I'm not invested enough in the actual discussion to be on either side here, so don't bother rolling your eyes at me.

However, you have the sense of how the evidence works backwards. If a possible mechanism can be identified whereby toxin could survive into the finished product, then the chance is not zero.

The evidence is already clear that it's in the "don't worry about it" category.

Just like the drop-side crib case, the point is that one needs to be aware of failure modes. Sure, there are risks inherent in life and many things we worry about are negligible compared to getting in a car. However, if a simple, low-cost procedure can eliminate a nonzero risk, then why not do it?


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Old 04-20-2012, 07:50 PM   #62
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I'm not invested enough in the actual discussion to be on either side here, so don't bother rolling your eyes at me.

However, you have the sense of how the evidence works backwards. If a possible mechanism can be identified whereby toxin could survive into the finished product, then the chance is not zero.

The evidence is already clear that it's in the "don't worry about it" category.

Just like the drop-side crib case, the point is that one needs to be aware of failure modes. Sure, there are risks inherent in life and many things we worry about are negligible compared to getting in a car. However, if a simple, low-cost procedure can eliminate a nonzero risk, then why not do it?
For the record, I wasn't singling you out as the contrarian, though I can see how my post may have read that way.

The crib example does show a nonzero risk, although such a negligible one that it still astounds me the sort of reaction that has come from it.

However, I'm asking for someone to show an example of a person who truly became ill from an organism that grew in their beer. Not a lab possibility that something might gorw that might make you sick if the circumstanes were perfect AND you injected it with toxins AND the alcohol content that is in actual beer wasn't there.

Show me one. single. case. in the real world of someone ever getting sick from beer toxins. Just one. As stated previously, I'll still utterly discount the "risk", as one example versus billions upon billons of safely consumed beers equals no realistic risk... but a person could at least argue the position IF they had some real world example.

I have yet to see one.


Honestly, with how rabid a few people are about insisting that no, really, nobody can say FOR SURE that beer won't make them sick... I could see some moron somewhere taking unfermented wort, letting it sit out until it grew something, then trying to make beer out of something they knew was bad - just to proove a point.

Ha! Those people on the internet were WRONG!


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Old 04-20-2012, 07:52 PM   #63
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I'm not invested enough in the actual discussion to be on either side here, so don't bother rolling your eyes at me.

However, you have the sense of how the evidence works backwards. If a possible mechanism can be identified whereby toxin could survive into the finished product, then the chance is not zero.

The evidence is already clear that it's in the "don't worry about it" category.

Just like the drop-side crib case, the point is that one needs to be aware of failure modes. Sure, there are risks inherent in life and many things we worry about are negligible compared to getting in a car. However, if a simple, low-cost procedure can eliminate a nonzero risk, then why not do it?
This is my point. I have a problem with the "nothing in homebrew can ever harm you whatsoever under any circumstances" claim that's been stated ad nauseam on this thread. That's an absolute that isn't true.

The botulism risk is EXTREMELY remote, only applicable in a very few select circumstances, and even in those circumstances you're more likely to win the lottery than to contract botulism poisoning (if there's ever been a case at all, reported or not). It's still FAR safer than eating most any other food product (or safer than tap water). I've never denied this. But it's dishonest to say it's not possible.

However slim the possibility, given the chance of death with poisoning, if you're dealing with anything canned follow food safety rules and if it's suspect, you toss it. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:55 PM   #64
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Show me one. single. case. in the real world of someone ever getting sick from beer toxins. Just one. As stated previously, I'll still utterly discount the "risk", as one example versus billions upon billons of safely consumed beers equals no realistic risk... but a person could at least argue the position IF they had some real world example.

I have yet to see one.
I'll hunt for an example, but given that amongst all the home canning that happens, that average of only 110 cases of CB poisoning are reported annually at all, and then assuming the percentage of home canning that is home canned wort is small, I probably won't find a reported one. Yet all the available scientific data suggests it is possible (hence the warnings). A .00000000000001% chance of poisoning is not a 0% chance. Not a realistic risk? Fine. But I see no point in calling me stubborn because you can't prove it's not possible. Either way, I've said my piece and I'm dropping it.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:41 PM   #65
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I'll hunt for an example, but given that amongst all the home canning that happens, that average of only 110 cases of CB poisoning are reported annually at all, and then assuming the percentage of home canning that is home canned wort is small, I probably won't find a reported one. Yet all the available scientific data suggests it is possible (hence the warnings). A .00000000000001% chance of poisoning is not a 0% chance. Not a realistic risk? Fine. But I see no point in calling me stubborn because you can't prove it's not possible. Either way, I've said my piece and I'm dropping it.
I will agree that one should be careful when canning, no matter what. That's the drop of common sense I alluded to earlier.

But do note that, by your logic, I can claim literally anything that I want to claim, and using the above logic, no one can prove me wrong. Example:

"People can sprout wings and fly." True, it has never been documented to have happened, but just because I haven't yet found a reported case doesn't mean that there isn't one.

An extreme, laughable example? Sure.

Is it dangerous to deal in absolute statements? Typically (note my lack of an absolute response, hehe).

However, until somebody can point to a single, solitary, real world example of a toxin in beer, the absolute is correct. One example - even a hundred examples - would make the odds laughably small that anyone would be at risk, but they would place your risk at greater than zero.

Your contention requires so many ifs and maybes that it just doesn't hold water. This is not meant to be a personal attack, all of my snarkiness aside - until you have some actual example of a situation's existence, you can't really defend the viewpoint that supports said situation.

Now, I will also step away from the thread.
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Old 04-22-2012, 03:15 PM   #66
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I will agree that one should be careful when canning, no matter what. That's the drop of common sense I alluded to earlier.

But do note that, by your logic, I can claim literally anything that I want to claim, and using the above logic, no one can prove me wrong. Example:

"People can sprout wings and fly." True, it has never been documented to have happened, but just because I haven't yet found a reported case doesn't mean that there isn't one.
Again, your application of logic is backwards with respect to the absolute. We do not have a reported example of poisoning (or wing-sprouting), but we do have plausible processes by which a poisoning could occur through improper canning. The existence of these processes prevents us from reasonably saying that poisoning is impossible.

Wing-sprouting is different because all of our knowledge of biology says that this won't happen. This is quite the opposite of the botulism toxin situation, so it doesn't provide a reductio ad absurdum type argument. It's not the same logic at all.

We can probably say that, using reasonable basic precautions, there is no chance of a toxic infection in beer. This is consistent both with experience with beer (based on the anecdotal evidence) and with extrapolation from infection in canning of other products. It's simply not supported to say there's no way that a canned wort starter can possibly poison you otherwise.

So, personally, I'm not going to get into canning, and I believe the standard beer process is pretty bulletproof. Still, if something comes out clearly off, I'm not going to drink it. Like pressure canning a low-acid product, trusting one's senses is common sense. (That, and I'd rather waste $30 on a batch than drink stanky-ass infected beer!)

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Old 07-25-2013, 07:54 PM   #67
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as long as u only use copper and stainless steel clean It regularly and don't ever use lead anything u should be fine
I read that excessive exposure to lead can cause a person to chronically misspell three letter pronouns. Weird, huh?
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Old 07-26-2013, 02:42 AM   #68
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Alcohol can be toxic if ingested in large enough quantities. For goodness sake, water in excess can be toxic. I have seen people on this site solder with lead, use a radiator from God-knows-where to chill their beer, use well water that hasn't been tested, use water from their roof, use non-food grade fermenters, all kinds of crazy stuff. Toxic, possibly. Did they end up in the hospital, probably not.

So yes, if you are dumb to all risks, home brewing can be toxic.

But following established and recommended procedures, and not trying crazy things without running them by those more experienced with them, homebrewing is very safe, and other than hangovers, obesity from excess calories, or I suppose drunk driving incidents, highly unlikely to seriously harm or kill you.


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