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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Beginners Beer Brewing Forum > Brewing beer without malt AKA Maltless Brewing
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Old 03-28-2012, 06:01 PM   #11
gr8shandini
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Very interesting. It may have come up in the other thread, but isn't amylase commercially available and wouldn't it do the trick without messing with fungi and letting things rot?


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Old 03-29-2012, 11:13 AM   #12
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So many responses since yesterday! Let me get started responding to everyone, there seems to be some misunderstandings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopherM View Post
Can you explain where your fermentables will be coming from?
Yes, the fungus Rhizopus oryzae produces copious amounts of isoamylase as well as cellulase, hemicellulases, pectinases, tannase, phytase, lipase, protease, additional amylases and other enzymes. It will basically take on the role that is traditionally filled by germination, and then some. My only fear is that it will make my beer too fermentable and dry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bk0 View Post
Sounds dangerous....Do you expect off-flavors...
Actually, it is an opportunistic pathogen and not a real pathogen. That is to say, if your body is lacking in its ability to defend itself, immunodeficient, then this could be a problem. Saccharomyces cerevisiae is also an opportunistic human pathogen and beer enthusiasts seem to be fine with using it.

As for flavours, well, this is the staple Chinese alcohol fermenter, the national equivalent of the Japanese sake fungus. I have had plenty of Chinese mijiu and, let me tell you, those are "off-flavours" that I would not mind at all. Infact, fermentation is just one type of rotting and people around here seem to be pretty happy with its results!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
.... What precedence are you following that suggests using fungus?
Tens of thousands of years of alcohol production here in Asia. The fungus that I am using is actually readily available here in China for home mijiu brewers. What I am trying to make is beer my dear friend, sour and robust beer!

Did I mention that Rhizopus oryzae also produces lactic acid? My tests don't seem to indicate enough for my liking though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bk0 View Post
....Maybe it's ok, they eat stuff like this in China...
Century eggs are delicious! My favourite moon-cakes all use century eggs as their filling, well I also like the salted duck egg fillings an awfully lot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GilaMinumBeer View Post
I'd sooner eat a thousand year egg than I would balut.
I am with you on that! Though I have never been offered the stuff, I have to say, I think I would turn it down!


Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8shandini View Post
....isn't amylase commercially available and wouldn't it do the trick without messing with fungi and letting things rot?
It could, and there are beers being produced that way, though I like complexity and depth in my endeavours. Using fungi to essential fill the job of malting the beer adds a whole new layer of tastes and aromas that have been selected for by the Chinese since antiquity.

To everyone:

I am sorry that I did not upload the pictures last night, I had not bought a scale yet. I went out and acquired one today and once my son falls asleep will go into my laboorrratory.


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Old 03-29-2012, 11:38 AM   #13
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this thread is very odd. my quick opinion: if you're willing to go to all this kind of trouble and seem to have unmalted barley, why dont you just buy fresh barley and malt it yourself?

whatever you make using your setup listed will almost certainly not be recognizable as beer.

besides that, as people mentioned there are sources of malted barley available in china. contact a big brewery and offer to buy some 2row barley or find out how they get it.

also, needs more hops!
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:42 PM   #14
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I have never heard of a lot of this stuff. I hope it turns out well.
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:10 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredthecat View Post
.... why dont you just buy fresh barley and malt it yourself?.. whatever you make using your setup listed will almost certainly not be recognizable as beer... needs more hops!
My hand was tried at malting and it seems to take a lot of space, a lot of time, and a lot of failure before you get it right. Besides, this isn't really much work at all. I have simply soaked my grains and inoculated them with a fungus.

I disagree, I think that it will most certainly be very beer-like. What reason do you have to make you think otherwise?

The thought of adding more hops had crossed my mind but I do not want to overpower it. Remember, yoghurt cultures will be added. I am trying to make a bit of a plambic style brew.


Now for some photographs!

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Here is the base-barley. This is the 600 grams that will be used to make my version of a crystal malt. After the sugars are produced and such, I will bake it all with convection till carmalized.

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This is the wheat that was used for the brew as I could not find rolled wheat. This, the black rice and 600 additional grams of barley were set to soak.


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Here is the lightly-roasted barley that will be used. It was 200 grams before roasting, I imagine that it is substantially less now.

As of me writing this, the soaking has completed and everything is now inoculated save the lightly-roasted barley, it will be kept as is till the mash.

It all is now incubating. I will buy the hops, pots and what-nots all tomorrow.
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Old 04-01-2012, 05:38 AM   #16
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Xier...you're a weird guy, but goddamn it this is interesting!

I may even be inclined to order a case of your fungus beer!

Best of luck!
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:03 AM   #17
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this is wicked cool! i am a avid mushroom hunter and have even cultivated some shiitake, and matsutake mushrooms last year. mushrooms and whats more the mycylium network (like the root system of mushrooms) contain large amounts of sugars. if the government spend half the time looking at this over corn sugar they would realize they can make an equivalant ethanol from this as well. seems to me your on to something and i am looking foward to what the final product looks and tastes like! very interesting...
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:33 AM   #18
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It is time for some updates; we have good, bad and neutral.

The good:
The fungus has converted everything perfectly! It is all so sweet, in-fact it tastes sweeter than my pure maltose syrup that I bought in the store. I am certain that everything malting can do this process can emulate just as well.

The bad:
When I went to Beijing to buy the hops, the store was closed and I came back empty handed.

The neutral:
I have decided to add some coriander and orange peels for spice. Zesting oranges shall be easy enough but finding coriander has been a bit difficult. I suppose that I will have to buy it from a gardening store. Hopefully, that will be acceptable.

Also, as I have been delayed everything has had a longer fermentation than was originally intended. The main tub of grains has been doing fine but I fear that the tub for crystal has been infected. While I caramelize it, it has taken on a strange taste and smell that are hard to explain. It is not unpleasant and I hope it only effects my brew in positive ways.

I will upload some photographs of it all when it finishes baking.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:39 AM   #19
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A question for some with experience:

Would it be feasible to mash and boil now without the hops and a portion of the water and then make a hop tea with the remaining water and add it to the fermenter?
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xier View Post
A question for some with experience:

Would it be feasible to mash and boil now without the hops and a portion of the water and then make a hop tea with the remaining water and add it to the fermenter?
I did almost(I added a bit of malt extract) that as an experiment
with a previous 10-gallon brown ale brew. It turned out fine.

Good luck Xier


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