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Old 01-24-2012, 07:55 AM   #1
mcnewcp
 
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Hey guys,

Does anybody know where I can get ahold of some lactobacillus brevis? I'd like to use it to make a Berliner Weiss, instead of the more common delbrueckii.

Thanks
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:19 AM   #2
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I don't know if Lactobacillus Buchneri would do the trick but more beer sells it. They say it is used in Berliner Weisse and always used in conjunction with S.cerevisiae and often with various wild yeast.

 
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:02 AM   #3
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ATCC #367, but I've only ordered using the address of an academic lab. L. fructivorans might be interesting, too.

 
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:50 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glossolalia View Post
ATCC #367, but I've only ordered using the address of an academic lab. L. fructivorans might be interesting, too.
I was hoping for a smaller scale and lower price range than that.

The main reason I didn't want to go with delbrueckii is because I had heard it is slower acting than brevis and because it is homofermentative and therefore won't produce alcohol. Does anyone have experience with delbrueckii? Also, does anyone know which strain/strains are in WLP677?
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Old 01-24-2012, 07:16 PM   #5
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Has anyone tried using one of the thermophilic bacteria packets for making cheese? The one I have says:
Includes lactose, (ST) streptococcus thermophilus, (LB) lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus, (LH) lactobacillus helveticus.

http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/...5-packets.html

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Old 01-24-2012, 08:31 PM   #6
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There's a patent on "yoghurt beer" from 1910 on making beer with subsp . Bulgaricus (Kaiserliches Patentamt Patentschrift No. 245607), so it probably works just fine.

I've been trying to get hold of some L. brevis too, since Prof. Methner has identified this as the most important Lactobacillus in Berliner Weiße. Unfortunately, they are not so easy to come by.

Fortunately, the taste difference between different strains of Lactobacillus is said to be not too big. I'm having quite good success using L. delbrueckii (if you give them a starter and some time to start souring before adding the yeast, they sure are slow).

One funny thing: there is a specific gene sequence in L. brevis that is responsible for hop resistance. It is not present in all strains of L. brevis, though. Would be worth the effort to find a hop-resistant L. brevis, and make a hopped Berliner Weiße...

Edit: WLP677 contains the wrong yeast! "Traditional German Weizen yeast" is actually a specific strain that produces a couple of aromas (clover, banana) typical for southern German Weizen. Berliner Weiße is made using regular top-fermenting yeast, which was also used for making bitters and brown beers. I have some good experience with Wyeast 1007, although I figure there is some comparable WLP yeast. Don't forget the Brett, too. Most styleguides won't tell you, but chemical analysis of historical Berliner Weiße shows that Brett is important.

Oh, and don't boil your Berliner Weiße for more than 5 minutes, or not at all, if you dare. That's something Wyeast got completely wrong on their recipe page.


 
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:59 PM   #7
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Supposedly cascade brewing in Oregon only uses a strain of lacto to sour their beers. Next time I get my hands on a bottle I'll have to see if I can culture some. I've got some HLP Medium to try.

 
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas23 View Post
Edit: WLP677 contains the wrong yeast! "Traditional German Weizen yeast" is actually a specific strain that produces a couple of aromas (clover, banana) typical for southern German Weizen. Berliner Weiße is made using regular top-fermenting yeast, which was also used for making bitters and brown beers. I have some good experience with Wyeast 1007, although I figure there is some comparable WLP yeast. Don't forget the Brett, too. Most styleguides won't tell you, but chemical analysis of historical Berliner Weiße shows that Brett is important.
I think you mean the berliner weisse blend WLP630. I noticed that too and I was planning on using a lacto starter with a neutral european strain pitched a day or two later, like WLP011. The WLP677 is just lacto, however there is no mention to the specific strain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas23 View Post
Oh, and don't boil your Berliner Weiße for more than 5 minutes, or not at all, if you dare. That's something Wyeast got completely wrong on their recipe page.
I was planning on doing a 10 or 15 minute boil, much like in Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles. I will be careful to keep the IBUs below 5, though.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:02 PM   #9
andreas23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnewcp View Post
I think you mean the berliner weisse blend WLP630.
Oops, you're right!

Quote:
The WLP677 is just lacto, however there is no mention to the specific strain.
I recall reading that this is L. delbrueckii too, but I've lost the reference.

I recommend checking the pH while waiting for the wort to sour. Pitch yeast if it drops below 4. One or two days is a good estimate, but I had cases where it took three, and then your Weiße wouldn't be sour enough.

Do you plan to add Brett for secondary? i wholeheartedly recommend it. I had a bottle of Groterjan Berliner Weiße back from the 70s recently, and the Brett is a huge part of the taste profile.

Quote:
I was planning on doing a 10 or 15 minute boil, much like in Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles. I will be careful to keep the IBUs below 5, though.
The longer you boil, the slower the lactos become. Traditionally, a turbid mashing scheme is used (pretty much a decoction, but boiling the liquid portion of the mash only), and the hops are boiled with the decocted part of the thin mash. The whole wort isn't boiled at all.

I do a single-step infusion mash, boil for five minutes, and completely skip the hops. Works just fine.

 
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas23 View Post
Do you plan to add Brett for secondary? i wholeheartedly recommend it.
I wasn't originally planning on it, but you're not the first to recommend it, so now I'm definitely considering. My previous experience with brett suggested that brett character can develop rather quickly, much quicker than lacto, so what would you say to adding brett at bottling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreas23 View Post
I do a single-step infusion mash, boil for five minutes, and completely skip the hops. Works just fine.
I think I'll adopt your 5 minute boil idea, though the lack of any hops concerns me.
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