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Old 12-30-2011, 05:24 PM   #1
flabyboy
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Default pH of Maris Otter

Anybody know the pH of Maris Otter in distilled water? Going to make a brew this week that is primarily Maris and I don't own a pH meter as of yet


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Old 12-30-2011, 05:51 PM   #2
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Try using this.

EZ Water Calculator


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Old 12-30-2011, 06:58 PM   #3
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That's what I am using, but the calculator does mention certain malters make grains that have different pH levels. I thought I read somewhere that Maris otter was 5.6 in distilled water, yet the calculator figures in 5.77.
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:39 AM   #4
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I've measured it at 5.6 but that was one sample from one maltster. I did a stout a couple of weeks back using it as the base with 10% roast barley and got 5.6 for the mash pH which certainly suggests that the MO only pH was higher. And I'm sure 5.77 wasn't just pulled out of the air. IOW it varies and the only way to know what you are dealing with is to make a measurement.
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:31 PM   #5
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AJ. If we are hoping for pH levels of 5.2-5.3 at Mash temps, is 5.6 an acceptable level at room temps?
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:29 AM   #6
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What is mash temp (beta glucan rest, protein rest, saccharification rest)?

In any case 5.4 - 5.6 is OK at room temp.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange
What is mash temp (beta glucan rest, protein rest, saccharification rest)?

In any case 5.4 - 5.6 is OK at room temp.
Sac rest of 149
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Old 01-04-2012, 06:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
I've measured it at 5.6 but that was one sample from one maltster. I did a stout a couple of weeks back using it as the base with 10% roast barley and got 5.6 for the mash pH which certainly suggests that the MO only pH was higher. And I'm sure 5.77 wasn't just pulled out of the air. IOW it varies and the only way to know what you are dealing with is to make a measurement.
Was that using R/O water, or did you add back some minerals? I use R/O water with either a tsp CaCl or CaSO4 per 5 gallons depending on beer style and I typically get a reading of 5.0-5.2 for recipes without much roast/crystal malt, and a reading of 4.8-5.0 for recipes with 10%+ roast/crystal malt. I do all of my readings at ~25C with a meter that is calibrated at ~25C. This data is over about 20-25 batches of different recipes.

I find that I usually need to add some pickling lime to get the pH back to the range I want it. This has always made me wonder, as most people say that you typically need to push the pH down rather than up, but I find that I am usually having to move it up.

As I have learned to anticipate, I have started adding some lime right to the water the night before when I add the other salts.

I have not had the R/O water tested for the remaining mineral content, but it is a culligan system in a wal-mart and it does get routine maintenance every month.

Sorry to partially hi-jack, but I guess it is slightly on topic.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
Was that using R/O water, or did you add back some minerals?
DI water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
I use R/O water with either a tsp CaCl or CaSO4 per 5 gallons depending on beer style and I typically get a reading of 5.0-5.2 for recipes without much roast/crystal malt, and a reading of 4.8-5.0 for recipes with 10%+ roast/crystal malt. I do all of my readings at ~25C with a meter that is calibrated at ~25C. This data is over about 20-25 batches of different recipes.
I don't question that you saw what you saw but I don't see how it is possible. I measure MO at 5.6 or higher in DI/RO water, as noted above. In RO water with 5 grams of CaCl2 or gypsum a base malt only mash would be expected to come in at 0.08, call it 0.10 lower than the DI water mash or, in the example I measured, minimum 5.5. And that is about where I measure MO mashes even with a fair amount of colored malts (Barley wines and stouts are the only non German ales I do). It always takes an acid addition to get below this. And it is consistent with what's in the brewing texts and, AFAIK, other peoples' experiences. So I am totally mystified as to how you could be getting as low as 5.0 for what is essentially a base malt mash.

A couple of questions:

What do you measure for base malt only dough in pH?

Are you using fresh, pH 4 and pH 7 buffers?

Are you rinsing the electrode with DI water and blotting or shaking between the 2 buffers and between sample and buffer?

What is the precision of your pH meter?

What's the pH of the RO water?

To me it seems the possibilities are:

1) problem with pH meter
2) bad calibration (from bad/old/contaminated buffers) and/or bad technique
3) RO water contains acid
4) super acidic MO or colored malts
5) "without much" means much less to me than it does to you

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Originally Posted by MachineShopBrewing View Post
Sorry to partially hi-jack, but I guess it is slightly on topic.
Don't think it's a hijack at all.
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:05 AM   #10
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Quote:
I don't question that you saw what you saw but I don't see how it is possible. I measure MO at 5.6 or higher in DI/RO water, as noted above. In RO water with 5 grams of CaCl2 or gypsum a base malt only mash would be expected to come in at 0.08, call it 0.10 lower than the DI water mash or, in the example I measured, minimum 5.5. And that is about where I measure MO mashes even with a fair amount of colored malts (Barley wines and stouts are the only non German ales I do). It always takes an acid addition to get below this. And it is consistent with what's in the brewing texts and, AFAIK, other peoples' experiences. So I am totally mystified as to how you could be getting as low as 5.0 for what is essentially a base malt mash.

I have been mystified as well. My mashes are not quite base malt mashes, but it still seems weird why I am usually going up instead of down.
Now that I am home, I went back through my beersmith files to look at some sample mashes.



12.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (3.0 SRM) Grain 90.57 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.77 %
0.50 lb Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 3.77 %
0.25 lb Amber Malt (22.0 SRM) Grain 1.89 %

This one came in at 5.10 with R/O + 1 tsp CaSO4 per 5 gallons. This one I brewed at a friends house and I had him double check with his pH meter for the very same reason that I posted in this thread. I have been suspect of my meter or my methods. Both readings with both meters were +/-.03 pH of each other.




10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 86.96 %
0.50 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.35 %
0.50 lb Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 4.35 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 4.35 %

This one came in at 5.35 with 1/2 tsp CaCl and 1/2 tsp CaSO4 per 5 gallons.



7.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM) (MO) Grain 73.68 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 10.53 %
0.50 lb Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5.26 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.26 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 2.63 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (200.0 SRM) Grain 2.63 %


This one came in at 4.9 with 1 tsp CaCl and 1/2 tsp Pickling Lime added to the water the night before. I corrected with another 1/2 tsp Pickling Lime and checked post boil going into the fermenter and it was 5.23.


My beers have been coming out great regardless, but it has been bugging me. I have sealed containers that I store the buffers in between calibrations. I do spray the electrode off with DI water and shake off the excess before going between buffers. I go through buffers every couple of months.

I use an MW-102 meter with auto calibration and temp correction.


I have not checked the R/O water before mashing. I will make a note to do that with the next batch.


On a side note, that may or may not be relevant, I never treat my sparge water with any minerals or acids. I will usually(if I remember) add an additional tsp of either CaCl or CaSO4 to the boil to get my Ca up for fermentation.

Cheers


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