Coldbreak Brewing Giveaway - Open to All!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Imperial Pilsner and Water Profile
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-23-2011, 09:15 PM   #1
1971hemicuda
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Aurora, Illinois
Posts: 173
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default Imperial Pilsner and Water Profile

I'm thinking of brewing an Imperial Pilsner this winter. Give it a good lager time in the garage

However, the problem lies in the water! With that much pilsner malt and no dark malt to lower the pH i'm curious about water additions

I'm using EZ Water Calculator 3.0.1

My profile is (given by ward labs)
pH - 8.9
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est - 306
Electrical Conductivity - .51
Cations/Anions, me/L - 4.9/4.6

Sodium, Na - 58
Potassium, K - 10
Calcium, Ca - 11
Magnesium, Mg - 19
Total Hardness, CaCO3 -107
Nitrate, NO3-N - .9
Sulfate, SO4-S - 13
Cloride, CL - 73
Carbonate, CO3 - 9
Bicarbonate, HCO3 - 77
Total Alkalinity, CACO3 - 78

I have a 10 gallon batch, with 27 lbs of pilsner malt giving me a pH of 5.75. Using lactic acid (or acid malt) and all the other water additions I can get it into a good 5.55 pH range, but my Residual Alkalinity is -180 something. is this a problem? Is this something I shouldn't even consider?


__________________
This is my beer, go brew your own
1971hemicuda is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 10:09 PM   #2
ajdelange
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 7,589
Liked 992 Times on 788 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

It's really no different from a regular Pils WRT to water. You will need the usual 3% sauermalz or equivalent in lactic or phosphoric acid. Also, don't know what kind of hops you plan to use but that sulfate is up there a bit.


ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 12:21 AM   #3
1971hemicuda
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Aurora, Illinois
Posts: 173
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Ok...so

I'm thinking I should dilute with some distilled water, that would help the sulfates. Make sure the hope bitterness out of the beer

However...I'm still concerned with the RA...is negative ok?
__________________
This is my beer, go brew your own
1971hemicuda is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 04:52 AM   #4
ajdelange
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 7,589
Liked 992 Times on 788 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

That's probably a good idea. It would help get the sodium down by half too. But it will push the calcium pretty low. You might want to supplement with a gram per 5 gallons of calcium chloride. That would bring the RA to +20 meaning that the mash pH would be little shifted relative to the DI water mash pH. The 3% sauermalz addition would drop mash pH from approximately 5.7 to approximately 5.4 which is just about right. But I'd hope you'd check this with a pH meter.
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 10:17 PM   #5
tgmartin000
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,124
Liked 72 Times on 57 Posts
Likes Given: 23

Default

Try using about half RO water, that will bring your pH down as well. Typically pilsner water is extremely soft, less than about 10 ppm of everything.
tgmartin000 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 10:34 PM   #6
1971hemicuda
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Aurora, Illinois
Posts: 173
Liked 4 Times on 4 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgmartin000 View Post
Try using about half RO water, that will bring your pH down as well. Typically pilsner water is extremely soft, less than about 10 ppm of everything.
I did a decent amount of research and saw that you can find water profiles out there..and wow, I will definitely be adding RO for almost 75% of my water. Then i'll add just a touch of a few things to bring it into normal range. I guess I was just confused because my RA is negative! ...oh well, people seem to tell me that as long as my pH is low enough I shouldn't worry too much about my RA
__________________
This is my beer, go brew your own
1971hemicuda is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 10:38 PM   #7
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 3,302
Liked 324 Times on 269 Posts
Likes Given: 30

Default

Do not worry about the hardness of the water. Unless you're decocting the mash, you should not use unadjusted soft water to brew with. The water in Pilsn is suitable for brewing because they decoct the mash and release calcium from the malt. For anyone else, do try and keep the calcium concentration at 40 to 50 ppm for good yeast growth and flocculation performance and beerstone reduction.

As was pointed out, the sulfate is a little higher than desirable for noble hops. In addition, the sodium and magnesium are a little higher than desirable. Dilution is a necessary option for this water. Do bring the calcium content back up to the limits I suggest above. Calcium chloride is your best option for that addition.
__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks
mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2011, 10:02 PM   #8
tgmartin000
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,124
Liked 72 Times on 57 Posts
Likes Given: 23

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
Do not worry about the hardness of the water. Unless you're decocting the mash, you should not use unadjusted soft water to brew with. The water in Pilsn is suitable for brewing because they decoct the mash and release calcium from the malt. For anyone else, do try and keep the calcium concentration at 40 to 50 ppm for good yeast growth and flocculation performance and beerstone reduction.

As was pointed out, the sulfate is a little higher than desirable for noble hops. In addition, the sodium and magnesium are a little higher than desirable. Dilution is a necessary option for this water. Do bring the calcium content back up to the limits I suggest above. Calcium chloride is your best option for that addition.
Interesting. I made a California common two weeks ago and tried to mimic the water profile in designing great beers, which gives a Ca concentration of about 27ppm.was that a mistake? Typically I know you need at least 50 ppm. I think I supplemented with about 3 grams cacl2.

It took about 3 days for fermentation to really get going . I thought that was due to the CA lager yeast, or that I crashed the starter for 30 hours. I didn't consider the Ca may have been an issue.
tgmartin000 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2011, 02:18 PM   #9
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
mabrungard's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 3,302
Liked 324 Times on 269 Posts
Likes Given: 30

Default

I doubt the low calcium level was the cause of a slow start of fermentation. Calcium's effects are more recognized at the end of ferment by underattenuation and poor clearing of the finished beer.
__________________
Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-...?ref=bookmarks
mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2011, 03:08 AM   #10
tgmartin000
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,124
Liked 72 Times on 57 Posts
Likes Given: 23

Default

Awesome, good to know, thanks!


tgmartin000 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Estimate water profile from water softener? Nateo Brew Science 19 08-22-2011 12:45 AM
Water Profile. Mongrat Brew Science 4 07-12-2011 07:32 PM
Water Profile Help.. marmonduke Brew Science 2 06-13-2011 10:17 PM
Help with Water Profile LarMoeCur Brew Science 10 02-09-2011 09:44 PM
Tucson, AZ water profile results from water dept. herbler Brew Science 40 02-02-2010 05:31 PM


Forum Jump

Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS