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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Pbw no rinse? Sodium percarbonate and metasilicate
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:35 AM   #1
Lost
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Default Pbw no rinse? Sodium percarbonate and metasilicate

I'm wondering if it is possible to do a no rinse or minimal rinse CIP.

I know pbw is percarbonate and metasilicate and an unknown surfactant. If I were to make pbw at home I would omit the surfactant over concerns about head retention.

This leaves the percarbonate which becomes hydrogen peroxide and soda ash (sodium carbonate). The peroxide is non toxic and from what I've read the soda ash is safe in the concentrations that would be left in the residue.

Oh and the sodium metasilicate also appears to be non toxic-ish but there's less info out there on it.

I would be concerned about the effects of long term exposure. And even if it is safe it may still generate off flavors.

Looking through the old threads it appears that those who did not rinse pbw drank the resultant beer without issue but that is anecdotal and I'd prefer some hard facts from someone who understands chemistry better than I do.

Incidentally, what's in one step? It seems to be a decent no rinse cleaner.


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Old 11-03-2011, 06:22 AM   #2
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Why dont you just use star san?


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Old 11-03-2011, 07:00 AM   #3
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StarSan is a sanitizer not a cleaner.

I would think you could use ONE STEP CLEANSER, which is no rinse. I've never used it so I can't say yeah or nay on it.
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Old 11-03-2011, 01:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insurgus View Post
Why dont you just use star san?
Quote:
Originally Posted by samc View Post
StarSan is a sanitizer not a cleaner.

I would think you could use ONE STEP CLEANSER, which is no rinse. I've never used it so I can't say yeah or nay on it.
Yeah I use starsan religiously but I'm looking to clean in place on the new rig. As samc said, starsan is not a cleaning agent.

5 star chemicals has supposedly described PBW as roughly a 70/30 mix of sodium percarbonate and sodium metasilicate (plus surfactant). The percarbonate provides most of the cleaning action (it and soda ash/washing soda/sodium carbonate are the primary agents in oxyclean). The metasilicate apparently provides some water softening capacity so the solution is effective in hard water (which I have).

Oxyclean free is cheap, yes, but has fillers and probably surfactants and foaming agents which I would rather not have. The percarbonate and metasilicate are cheap also and available locally and I know exactly what's going into the mix. Plus oxyclean often leaves a residue which is supposedly the result of hardwater contact. Using a mix with the metasilicate may resolve or reduce this problem.

I'm looking at MSDS for these and they're not looking too toxic. The dangerousness apparently stems from their strong alkalinity which would be a non-issue in diluted and residual form. I'm wondering if it's really necessary to rinse them.

I have used one-step and it works ok. Definitely not as good as PBW. I would consider making that as well but I haven't got a clue what's in the one-step. Maybe just straight percarbonate?
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Old 11-03-2011, 02:51 PM   #5
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I make my own PBW, but its a mix of TSP Alternative and Oxycleen. Its works very well, but i do rinse thouroughly. Where do you find the raw ingredients to make PBW? I'd love to not have to rinse, at a minimum less rinsing.
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Old 11-03-2011, 03:05 PM   #6
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Sodium percarbonate can be had at pool supply stores.

The "tsp" (metasilicate) is at ace hardware as you probably know.

Metasilicate appears to be rated as foodsafe in low concentrations (eg for washing fruit).

I think one step may just be straight sodium percarbonate.
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:25 PM   #7
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I still don't get it....if you are doing CIP, what is the big deal by following up CIP with RIP (Rinse in place, get it?..yuk yuk)
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:35 PM   #8
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I'm confused. I picture you using your no rinse pbw to clean out any "gunk", then just dumping it out without having to fully rinse it? How do you get all the residual "gunk" out if it gets left behind? Everytime I clean my equipment I rinse but its because the PBW loosens it all up but I still need to flush it out, otherwise it is just left sitting in there.
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadbill
I still don't get it....if you are doing CIP, what is the big deal by following up CIP with RIP (Rinse in place, get it?..yuk yuk)
Really no big deal. I'm just wondering how well I need to rinse. I've always rinsed and rinsed and rinsed pbw and oxyclean. I'd like to avoid that with this cleaner. I'd like to know it's safe if a bit of it somewhere somehow makes it into the beer.
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Old 11-03-2011, 04:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost View Post
Really no big deal. I'm just wondering how well I need to rinse. I've always rinsed and rinsed and rinsed pbw and oxyclean. I'd like to avoid that with this cleaner. I'd like to know it's safe if a bit of it somewhere somehow makes it into the beer.
Ok now i understand. No rinse is more a precaution than an attempt to shorten your process. Got'cha


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