Spa Panel Wiring for Dummies

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Capn_James

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Happy Sunday before Labor Day folks. I am in the process of setting up an electric brewery (just in my basement, nothing HUGE) and am getting all of the pieces and parts pulled together. I only have a three prong dryer outlet so I am going with the spa panel route for the GFI protection. I picked up a panel, plug and wiring yesterday and want to get this started. I have seen some of the wiring diagrams for the spa panels and it looks like a separate ground is being ran into the panel. Does anyone have pics of a completed panel? Do I need an insulated Ground? Maybe P-J is lurking out there and can offer some advice... I know I will be asking him in the immediate future for some advice on my control panel. :mug:
 
Here is the wiring setup you need to run from a 3 prong dryer outlet. You can mount a 4 prong outlet directly in the Spa Panel.
Link to the panel: HomeDepot - GE 50A 240V Spa Panel


power-panel-6.jpg



Hope this helps you.
 
Thanks P-J. Me thinks I was looking at the wrong setup; possibly the 4 wire into the panel? Should the ground running to the power out put be insulated if I put a receptacle in the box? Would you suggest a twist lock or would just a standard 4 prong suffice? I have access to electrical suppliers to get generic material at cost so cost would be minimal...
 
I would just mount this one in the Spa panel: Leviton 30-Amp Industrial Flush Mount Single Power Outlet

Then get a matching dryer cord to power your controller. This one is an example: GE 4-Prong 30-Amp Dryer Cord

Regarding the ground wire: It can be insulated or bare copper. It does not matter as the ground block where you develop the ground in the Spa Panel is bonded to the box. My personal preference would be insulated, but, that's me.

P-J

An after thought for you. For the input power to the Spa Panel, just buy a standard 3 prong dryer cord.
 
P-J,

I thought that the neutral was to be bonded to the ground only at the main panel. Aren't you setting up a possible problem if any part of the brewery or the spa panel is grounded in some other way?
 
P-J,

I thought that the neutral was to be bonded to the ground only at the main panel. Aren't you setting up a possible problem if any part of the brewery or the spa panel is grounded in some other way?
That is an accurate statement - however.

We are dealing with a 3 wire dryer outlet (in this case) or a 3 wire range outlet that was installed prior to the current NEC requirements. The 3 wire outlets are delivering 2 hots and neutral to the device plugged into it - i.e. 120V/240V AC. Within the dryer or the range there is a bonding strap from the neutral to the equipment cabinet that is providing equipment ground at the appliance.

The GFCI setup I've illustrated is still using the same outlet and ground is being developed in a slightly different manner through the use of the GFCI breaker. It is legitimate and is in accordance with current NEC as there are no changes being made to the building wiring. Also, the neutral and the developed ground are not being bonded to earth in any manner.

Hope this helps.
 
Not P-J, but I would advise braided if you can find/afford it. Working in your CP you want the wire to be as flexible as possible to make your life easier.

:mug:
 
I would not use solid core wire in the control panel unless I had no other choice. You can get stranded wire by the foot at Lowe's, HD or Ace. Or just buy a few feet of 4 wire extension cord cable and retrieve the wires from inside the cable for your general wiring. You just need to pay attention to the wire gauge needed for the circuit involved.

P-J
 
I have a question about that panel. Does the white coiled wire coming off the neutral-in-from-main terminal get connected to the ground terminal on the right, or is it connected to the yellow neutral terminal to the right of GFCI breaker switch?

Sorry, I don't know the exact terminology.
 
ilikethetrees, I only had a three wire dyer outlet that I am feeding this panel with. It has a bonded neutral and ground that is coming in through the feed. I believe this is essentialy "un-bonding" them. (I could be talking out of my a$$) I am moving in about 8 months so I didn't want to run a dedicated outlet, swap out a breaker and leave my hard work behind.
 
No. It goes from the incoming ground/neutral to the breaker then to the load. Take a look at the pic P-J posted on #2, it is clearer than the fuzzy ipod picture I have up. I will try to take some more pics today.
 
Good Job. Well done!

P-J

Thanks P-J. Couldn't have done it without all of the help you have provided. Numerous reads and re-reads of your posts and diagrams have given me the confidence to embark on this escapade. Thanks!!!:mug:
 
Turn your panel on and spray it with water. Thats the only other way I would know of but I obviously wouldn't want to do it. As long as it works when you hit the "test" button, you should be good.
Tom
 


To help another dummy…

Regarding the yellow N coming out of the breaker and going to the receptacle: Is this only used for a N return in 110v devices?

It looks like your receptacle (kettle) is grounding at the G bus (upper right). And the G bus is wired directly to the N bus, making both buses up-stream from the GFCI, correct?

Within this panel, how are the G bus and N bus functionally different? Since they’re both up stream from the breaker, and since they’re wired together directly, and since they’re both connected to the three wire supply’s ground, what are their separate functions?

If that’s remotely accurate, why not just send your receptacle/kettle ground to the N bus, directly next to where your dryer chord’s ground connects?

And… within this panel, is the G bus solely intended to ground the spa panel chassis?

Finally, what is the round-and-flat aluminum piece that’s screwed to the back of some of the panels I’ve seen?

I’m sure your box is correct, and big thanks to all you guys, and a sincere apology if this has been discussed ad nauseum. I just want to understand it with perfect clarity before I wire mine up.

Cheers:mug:
 
The spa panel discussed in this thread is described twice as being 240 watts on the home depot website, the first one I though was a typo, but am I missing something?

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...&langId=-1&keyword=UG412RMW250P&storeId=10051
TYPO!!! A basic example: 240V * 50 Amps = 12,000 Watts. By the way that's a lot!! Still a good deal for GFCI protection. You can still get the GFCI protection you need, even if you hook it up to a breaker in your main/house breaker box that is smaller amperage. My $0.02
 
Got a question: I have a 3 wire 20 amp 220 V outlet in the garage that I want to hook this SPA Panel and ultimately an Auber PID to. The only issue is that the outlet is two hots and a ground, not two hots and neutral. Can I wire it up the same as shown in the pictures?

Or am I unable to get 110 to the control panel, and will be forced to run a new 4 wire 50A line to the garage, thereby being able to run two 4500 watt elements instead of the one 3500 watter I am planning now? Please understand that your summarized responses will be presented to the accounting department for final decision. :D
 
Just found a deal 6/4 aluminum wiring on clearance at HD 53 cents a foot. Guess that makes my decision easier.
 
And by the way for anyone reading about my option with two hots and one ground, that's not a good (or safe) idea. Your receptacle needs to be two hots and a neutral for you to split it in the spa panel if you plan on getting 110 into your control panel. Even then its not up to NEC code, but that's besides the point.
 
I have everything wired up to this point (I haven't finished my control panel yet) and now I think I may be misinterpreting some things. My control panel for now would be a simple one element/one pump like Johnodon's.

Background:
House built in 1954. 30 amp 240 circuit breaker in the main panel. There is a dryer outlet I was going to use for brewing. Using a meter, I measured 240v across the hots, 120v across either hot and ground/neutral. Since I have a gas dryer (and to use the outlet in its current location I would have had to drape the CP power cord across a sink and washer) I moved the outlet and reconnected it. When I took the outlet apart I found 8(10?)/2 SE aluminum cable with an uninsulated ground/neutral wrapped around the two insulated hots (black/red).

So. My plan was to split the ground/neutral in Spa panel and then run a 10/3 wire out of the spa panel and terminate that to a 4-prong connector, which I would then connect to the power cable from the control panel. I still wired everything up and connected the spa panel to the 3-prong outlet. On the 4-prong connector (NEMA L14-30) from the spa panel, I tested 240v across the two hots and 120v across either hot and neutral and 120v across either hot to ground. I pushed the GFCI test button on the spa panel and the breaker tripped.

I've read that the aluminum SE cable was grandfathered in and included ground/neutral. Eventually (within two years), I plan on having the service panel upgraded to 200 amps (with a new run to the brewery), but for the interim I was hoping to get by with this set-up until then. Is this still a practical* solution or am I misinterpreting this method of splitting ground/neutral at the spa panel?



*I understand that the proper response is to just run new 10/3. But I'm more interested in whether spa panel will work or not.
 
EDIT: Not sure I trust my electricity knowledge enough to leave my opinion on this thread. Opinion omitted.

Listen to P-J. Or better yet call an electrician to come look at your setup.
 
Someone with more expertise can chime in on me here, but I think that if your existing plug/wiring is two hots and a ground, you do not want to split that ground into ground/neutral within the spa panel. Especially since the existing ground wire is uninsulated, you could be electrifying that wire (and anything else metal that happens to be touching it). Which means that if all your wiring in the house is ran that way, every single ground cord could be carrying current to everything that it is touching.

In simple terms, inside the spa panel you can split a neutral into ground/neutral, but you can’t split a ground into a ground/neutral.

Please someone check me and if I am found to be wrong I will edit this post to avoid further confusion.

How do you test the third wire to see if it is a neutral or ground? Dang, I thought I just about had this all understood and what I needed to do. :(
 
Check continuity with a known 110V neutral and/or ground? Or you could look in the breaker box and see where the wire is hooked up.
 
How do you test the third wire to see if it is a neutral or ground? Dang, I thought I just about had this all understood and what I needed to do.
In short, yeah, I want to know the same thing. Type SE wire with 8ga aluminum in a three wire outlet is grandfathered under the NEC codes, I know that much (I also know that connecting it to the spa panel may be a gray area, moreso since I moved it a few feet and rewired the outlet). But basically this is my question. I saw a few posts about not having a neutral and only a ground in a three prong outlet and I want to be able to test that uninsulated ground/neutral to see what it is and to make sure that what I have is what is excepted by code and I can do what is described in this thread.
 
I believe your cable does have an outer layer of insulation that covers the entire cable. The neutral in cables from the 1950's were commonly fabricated that way. Matter of fact, Romex cable was done exactly that way.

Another thing: You moved the outlet. You did not rewire the circuit.

Bottom line, you are A-Ok going with your plan. When you have your mains panel replaced and the wiring updated, that's when you replace the wiring.

P-J
 
I got a used Spa panel for cheap that is a bit different than what is on here. Here are pictures.

img0473op.jpg


img0471tw.jpg


From the diagram it seems pretty simple. My only question is the power source will be 3 wire. Would i just split the neutral in the box to neutral and ground?
 
I got a used Spa panel for cheap that is a bit different than what is on here. Here are pictures.
...
From the diagram it seems pretty simple. My only question is the power source will be 3 wire. Would i just split the neutral in the box to neutral and ground?
I do not have a single clue. Your images are so small & I cannot see or make a decent judgment about the issues.

So Sorry.. I cannot be of help to you in a very critical plan. I do not want to make a judgment with "You bet your life" as an outcome.

P-J
 
PJ thanks for coming to help! I have tried to replace the original pictures with better pictures. In case you cannot read the text (sorry about that) here is what it says:

Top: "This GFCI can be used to protect 240V 3 wire or 240V 4 wire devices up to 50 amps. If a 3 wire device is being protected a 312 AWG neutral is required from the power source (house) to the load center only.

Bottom left: Netral is no longer required on a 240V 3 wire circuit from the point

Bottom right
: If the device to be served is 240v 3 wire the neutral wire from source to N requires a #12 AWG wire. Neutral is disregarded from this point.
 
The 2 wires between T2 and N are exposed ground wires

If it helps I can email you higher resolution pictures if you need them. Thank you again for helping!

EDIT: Here is a link to a higher resolution picture. If you click on it it will open up in a bigger picture

http://imageshack.us/f/836/img0471tw.jpg/
 
The GFCI setup I've illustrated is still using the same outlet and ground is being developed in a slightly different manner through the use of the GFCI breaker. It is legitimate and is in accordance with current NEC as there are no changes being made to the building wiring. Also, the neutral and the developed ground are not being bonded to earth in any manner.

Hope this helps.

I am a bit confused about this. Does this mean the ground is not really connected to anything and is not a true ground? I found this wiring diagram online and on page 11 the top wiring diaphragm shows the 3 wire source being made into a 4 wire inside the spa panel but also shows the ground leaving the panel in 2 places (one to the hot tub and one to a grounding source).

http://www.sundancespas.com/Communications/InstructionManuals/06PreDelGuide.pdf
 
What are you trying to wire, 240 only or 120/240?

What is the source power supply?
 

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