hybrid HLT for HERMS?

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slakwhere

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Joined
Dec 6, 2009
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Location
Salt Lake City
hey guys, i am currently in a totally manual propane setup in 3 keggles with a HERMS coil, but monitoring my HERMS output with a PID. i have been considering using electric to easily maintain my HERMS output at my mash temp, but only really have 110v available to me, and still want to be able to use gas to supplement the inital heating and any big steps necessary (like mash out).

what i'm envisioning is installing a heater element in the lower side of the HLT and then connecting it to the PID via SSR. But i'm wondering with a junction box hanging out off the side of the HLT if i can still fire this with gas? would a heat shield be necessary? or can i just make sure it's away from the bottom keggle vent holes?

i was considering a heat stick as an intermediatary step but i think i should just go for it, punch a nice big hole in the HLT and install an element... so any suggestions on the best way to install one to the side of the keggle would be helpful. :tank:
 
hey guys, i am currently in a totally manual propane setup in 3 keggles with a HERMS coil, but monitoring my HERMS output with a PID. i have been considering using electric to easily maintain my HERMS output at my mash temp, but only really have 110v available to me, and still want to be able to use gas to supplement the inital heating and any big steps necessary (like mash out).

what i'm envisioning is installing a heater element in the lower side of the HLT and then connecting it to the PID via SSR. But i'm wondering with a junction box hanging out off the side of the HLT if i can still fire this with gas? would a heat shield be necessary? or can i just make sure it's away from the bottom keggle vent holes?

i was considering a heat stick as an intermediatary step but i think i should just go for it, punch a nice big hole in the HLT and install an element... so any suggestions on the best way to install one to the side of the keggle would be helpful. :tank:

That's funny, I was just mulling over this last night. Yes, you can still easily fire it with gas with a j-box on the side if you take special precautions. Make sure it's away from the vent holes, for sure. Running the cable in conduit will help protect the cable's insulation. The cable probably should not enter the j-box via the bottom of the j-box - enter through the sides or top instead. A heat shield may not be necessary, but I believe it should be done. I will probably be installing one. However, you never truly know if you need it until it's installed and you perform a water test. Do you currently have any kind of method for heat dispersion on your brewstand? For example: Do the keggles sit on top of blocks/heatsinks; do you have holes cut into the keggle skirts? I have both of those methods which I think will help with keeping the heat away from the junction box.
 
i have a square frame with triangle "shields" in the front 2 corners to keep heat away from my hands and the valves. i guess i could add another set of triangles for the back to keep radiated heat from licking up the sides of the keggle... but then like you said the whole stand becomes a giant heatsink. granted, the keggle itself will never get much above 212 as the water/wort keeps it at that temp.

the cord should definitely come out the top and i'll use some cover like Kal did on his cables. guess i should order a greelee punch and an SSR and get to work eh? ;)
 
Why not just do initial heating in your boil kettle on propane and then just pump it over to the electric HLT when you get close to the temp you want?

I'd be extremely worried about f*cking up my electric kettle by putting it on a burner and (as far as I can tell) you don't absolutely NEED to in your situation.
 
Walker, i usually do a dual water heating to maximize my time: dough in water in the BK, HERMS/sparge water in the HLT. that way i get to use both burners and all the water ends up approximately the same temp at the same time since they're fairly similar volumes.

i guess i need to do some water tests to see what a full blast propane burner produces as far as heat in the back of the brew stand to determine if it's dangerous for the electronic bits.
 
EarthBound said:
Just to suppress my curiosity, please explain why.

Simply because of the heat licking up an around the side and the insulation on wires and whatnot.

The heatshield will help a lot but things will still be hot and I'd be concerned about melting something.
 
When you heat with a burner, you are heating the kettle which then heats the contents. Even though the contents will only reach boiling temps the kettle could get much hotter especially near the burner. I would be concerned about having electric hooked to it.
 
Simply because of the heat licking up an around the side and the insulation on wires and whatnot.

The heatshield will help a lot but things will still be hot and I'd be concerned about melting something.

When you heat with a burner, you are heating the kettle which then heats the contents. Even though the contents will only reach boiling temps the kettle could get much hotter especially near the burner. I would be concerned about having electric hooked to it.

slakwhere is also concerned about melting something and about having electric hooked to it. Coincidentally, I share the same concern, so he and I are discussing ideas that could possibly mitigate this heat issue with j-boxes. I'd love to hear any ideas you may have.

I think rigid conduit would be helpful for protecting the cable's insulation. Heat sinks could be installed into the conduit, as well. A proper heat shield installed below the j-box could be helpful, as well. What do you think?
 
I think rigid conduit would be helpful for protecting the cable's insulation. Heat sinks could be installed into the conduit, as well. A proper heat shield installed below the j-box could be helpful, as well. What do you think?

I think that's a whole lot of materials and work, where the end benefit is being able to save 10 or 15 minutes of time by heating strike and sparge water separately. :D

I'd honestly just take the 15 minute time hit and avoid putting my electric kettle on a burner. Just heat all of my water in in the other kettle on the propane burner.
 
I understand that it seems like a waste of time and money to you. You may even think it's ridiculous. That's fine with me, but I'm still gonna do it. Why? Because I like doing this kind of stuff. I like engineering and building. It has nothing to do with saving 10 or 15 minutes. If it did, I wouldn't even bother discussing it. Please let me know if you have any helpful ideas.
 
I understand that it seems like a waste of time and money to you. You may even think it's ridiculous. That's fine with me, but I'm still gonna do it. Why? Because I like doing this kind of stuff. I like engineering and building. It has nothing to do with saving 10 or 15 minutes. If it did, I wouldn't even bother discussing it. Please let me know if you have any helpful ideas.

Settle down. No need to get bent out of shape.

slakwhere says that HIS reason for wanting to put the eHLT on a burner is to save time. This is (or was) his thread, so my comments have been geared towards him.
 
walker, it's just as much to be able to automagically hold temp for my HERMS as it is to save some time...

heat shields in the front of my rig kept the ball valves n such from getting too hot, i imagine if i did the same in the rear i could keep the j-box from getting so hot it caused problems
 
walker, it's just as much to be able to automagically hold temp for my HERMS as it is to save some time...

Not sure I follow you there. How does heating the water most of the way on propane and then transferring to the eHLT to finish the heating and hold at temp impact this goal?
 
it doesn't impact that goal, but i don't have the volume when doing 10 gallon batches to heat my sparge/herms and dough in water all at once in just 1 vessel. so that adds time to my brewing day vs the way i'm doing it now and i think i can get away with direct fire with the j-box.
 
Settle down. No need to get bent out of shape.

slakwhere says that HIS reason for wanting to put the eHLT on a burner is to save time. This is (or was) his thread, so my comments have been geared towards him.

You obviously misinterpreted the tone of my previous post. It's easy to do that on this forum, isn't it? ;)
 
i am out of town this weekend but i think i'm going to have to check it out next weekend to see what kinda temps i get. maybe just aluminum foil heat shields on the back of the stand and then take some thermal readings with my IR heat gun.

if you get any research done before then please let me know :)
 
i am out of town this weekend but i think i'm going to have to check it out next weekend to see what kinda temps i get. maybe just aluminum foil heat shields on the back of the stand and then take some thermal readings with my IR heat gun.

if you get any research done before then please let me know :)

That's a good idea. I can borrow one of those from the plant I work at and try it out, too. I'll letcha know what I come up with.
 
You obviously misinterpreted the tone of my previous post. It's easy to do that on this forum, isn't it? ;)

Indeed, it appears that I did misinterpret things. I read your comment as basically, "F*ck you, buddy! I am going to do it just because I want to do it. If you have nothing useful to add, then STFU."

:mug:
 
I have not had time to work on this yet, but I will soon. I got the IR gun from work, so I will be using that when I get the time.

Here is what I am thinking might work. Instead of using conduit, install a receptacle in the j-box and have the cable unplugged whenever fire is involved. If the cable is unplugged, we don't have to worry about the cable being overheated.

Because of my keggle sitting on little sections of square tubing and having big rectangular holes cut into the sides of the skirt, the flame's heat is being dissipated away from the back of the keggle. This is what relieves any real concern I would have of overheating the j-box.

However, I think that installing a heat shield under the j-box should be mandatory to protect the j-box and its contents.

My conclusion is that it is perfectly fine to have both electric and direct-fire capabilities on the same brewstand, and I believe it takes only a small amount of money and work, where the end benefit is huge.
 
i like the idea of removable! possibly just something you can plug a standard extension cord into (like the power port of an RV/camper which is just a recessed male plug). you would still have wiring inside the j-box but would alleviate the exterior cords for sure!
 
I'm interested to hear about readings from the ir gun on the surrounding area. I am nearly finished building a hybrid rig exactly like this and was also planning to heat both strike water in the bk and herms/sparge water in the hlt simultaneously with nat gas and then mash with the hlt run with an element. I am not using a j box but potted the connection instead into an ss 1" pipe fitting with jb weld.

I think the cord should be fine, buy I guess I'll get some kind o heat shield and wrap the cord further.

Have you had any issues with your t probe wire getting too hot? How close is it to your bk?
 
i'm considering potting this with epoxy and a PVC collar with a power connector on the end of it. small form factor, heat shouldn't be a huge factor, the epoxy potting should keep everything safe inside, and a removable connector to keep the form factor low and wires off the HLT when using gas heat.
 
Here's mine both gas and 1500w elec.
keg027.jpg

keg026.jpg



I tacked on the box and built and SS cover over 50 brews and no problems with the heat from the burner. it dose'nt show the cord but its a piece extenssion cord with a plug to the control panel
 
There are a lot of ways to skin that fish.
Here is mine:

DSC02376-e.jpg


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I use special connectors in a 'gem' box so that I have a cord disconnect.

Pull the cord and everything is A-OK.

BTW: The gem box is soldered in place, as well as the fitting to recieve the element.

Works for me.

P-J
 
P-J i'm super stoked on this :) exactly what i had in mind :rockin: removable cord, soldered in place, grounded, ready to rock!!

Henry, that's basically what i had in mind but with a removable cord ;)
DSC02376-e.jpg


DSC02403-sm.jpg


I use special connectors in a 'gem' box so that I have a cord disconnect.
 
resurrecting this thread because i just saw this wonderful video from BobbyM on heat shields for his sight glasses. it looks like this is the sort of thing i need for the heating element to ensure the wires don't get too hot.

On top of that, i finally got around to soldering in a 1" half coupling and installing a heating element, so i can start the process of connecting to an SSR and heat testing the heating element connections. :ban:

http://www.youtube.com/c5p-JYSLXRA&hl
 
resurrecting this thread because i just saw this wonderful video from BobbyM on heat shields for his sight glasses. it looks like this is the sort of thing i need for the heating element to ensure the wires don't get too hot.

On top of that, i finally got around to soldering in a 1" half coupling and installing a heating element, so i can start the process of connecting to an SSR and heat testing the heating element connections. :ban:

http://www.youtube.com/c5p-JYSLXRA&hl

That link doesn't work, but I have seen his video, and I agree that it is a good design for our application.

I decided to do something similar to what Henrythe9th and P-J posted. Is that what you plan on doing, as well?
 
doh i must have butchered the link trying to make it embed. oh well.

i am actually thinking of just attaching the female quick connect plug to the heating element "dead bug" style (no housing/breadboard/etc) and then just potting the whole thing in epoxy or JB Weld in a short tube so the whole thing is waterproof and has a smaller form factor.
 
Sounds like a good idea to me. Please post a pic of it when you're done.

I believe this is the video you were trying to post:

 
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The BobbyM style heat shield is exactly what I have protecting my heating element cable from the flames. I also wrapped the thing in flame retardant cloth and heat shield covering about a foot out of the kettle, both from McMastercarr. Probably overkill, but I'm uninterested in dancing with 240v....

I've had dozens of brews this way (build finished last summer), and no issues apparent or seem likely.
 
EarthBound, thanks for the check up. i have been moving into my new house and haven't had much time to brew, but i got my first lager under my belt last weekend and used my new hybrid HLT. i do not have a heat shield, only a soldered 1" fitting and a metal junction box to contain the wires.

i used the full blast propane heat from underneath with the electric to assist to get my sparge water up to temp. i then switched to electric only for maintaining mash temps at 149 using the HLT and PID. i then used the electric only to mash out at 168.

it was everything i wanted, worked beautifully (with some aggressive suggestions from me to the pid regarding power % early on).

the new house has the garage wired for 240v @ 40A so i may end up going all electric, but in the mean time this hybrid HLT will totally let me use my PID for holding HLT temps and propane for getting to those temps quicker!
 
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