Coldbreak Brewing HERMS Giveaway!

HomeBrewSupply AMCYL Brew Kettle Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing > Single infusion --a bunch of bull ?
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-27-2007, 02:15 PM   #21
jdoiv
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jdoiv's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,149
Default

Several years ago, I had the opportunity to go to a beer dinner with the head brewmaster for Sam Adams. Very nice gentleman who had spent years brewing in Germany. He helped Jim Koch perfect the recipe for the Lager when Sam Adams first started. I asked him about whether they did single infusion or decoction mashes. He said that he only did decoction mashes as he wanted to have complete control over the grain. Basically he said the less the malter did to the grain the better as far as he was concerned. He wanted to be the one that controlled how the grain was modified and the end product. He said that it allowed him to get the end result he wanted on a consistent basis which is what a large brewery needs, consistency. It also allowed them to get over 90% effciency which is another major concern for a commercial brewer. He said for home brewing and with the quality of the malts out these days that single infusion was fine for most beer styles the home brewer would try. And great beers could be made by using single infusion. But there isn't that much in common with what the home brewer does and a large commercial brewery. It's a little like comparing apples to oranges (or ale to lager).


__________________
Drinking on the keg: BPA, Brown Ale, Dry Mead, Wee Heavy aged on Oak, CAP
Drinking in the Bottle:
Conditioning:
Fermenting:
Planning:
jdoiv is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 02:21 PM   #22
delboy
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
delboy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Belfast N.Ireland
Posts: 324
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan!
Your neighbor sounds like a pompous bastard...and, in my opinion, the last thing homebrewing needs is pompous bastards who are 100% sure that their way is the best way.

What WOULD be funny is to learn how to do a good decoction mash. Then brew 4 similarly-styled beers. 2 decoction, 2 SI. Bring him an unmarked bottle of each one. I'd bet that he can't blindly pick out the decoction batches.
By instantly dismissing decoction mashing without having tried it would we not be guilty of the same crime
Not that im calling anybodys legitimacy and parentage into question (SI or decoction mashing just doesn't move me in that way ).


delboy is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 02:44 PM   #23
Cheesefood
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Poo-Poo Land
Posts: 6,809
Liked 36 Times on 25 Posts

Default

Jdoiv: was it the bearded brewmaster from the commercials? He looks like a cool guy.

As for the original argument, it's hard to say that any of us are going to beat a guy with 35 years of experience. No matter what he does or how he does it, cances are it'll be better. So if decoction is how he cut his teeth, then let him have it. Perhaps in 33 years, I'll be all about decoction too. However, in the mean time I'd like to master single infusion before I get into trick brewing.
__________________
Past Winners: Caramel Cream Ale #1, Hoegaarden Clone, Boom-Boom Vanilla Ale, Lazy Monk Abbey Style, Amarillo Cream Ale. (AG),

Buy a shirt now!!! Please! Did I help you? Buya shirt!
Cool Shirts.


Cheesefood is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 02:55 PM   #24
jdoiv
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jdoiv's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,149
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesefood
Jdoiv: was it the bearded brewmaster from the commercials? He looks like a cool guy.

No, he isn't the head brewer I'm speaking of. My best friend's girlfriend runs the Sam Adams brewery in Boston. They mostly do R&D work at that brewery. From what she and my friend say, the bearded guy is really cool and home brews as well.

The gentleman I'm speaking of had to be in his early 60's when I met him back in 2000 or 2001. I had just started home brewing and my friend was a sales rep for Sam Adams. He put on the beer dinner for some of his clients at a restaurant in Burbank and had the brewer fly out for the dinner. I got a ticket and went. Lots of fun.
__________________
Drinking on the keg: BPA, Brown Ale, Dry Mead, Wee Heavy aged on Oak, CAP
Drinking in the Bottle:
Conditioning:
Fermenting:
Planning:
jdoiv is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 03:26 PM   #25
Dude
Will work for beer
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Dude's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Knob Noster, Missouri
Posts: 8,843
Liked 76 Times on 66 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_bird
Alright, I'm going to quibble with you for one second...

You said not too long ago that you wanted to (and I'm going to paraphrase here) "stretch" yourself as a brewer by getting better at adjusting things like mouthfeel/body via mash techniques. To this end, I know you're trying to get better control over things like mash thickness. Don't ask me to dig up the thread (although I will), but I know you've said words to the effect of "I'd like to be able to get away from using carapils and get the effect through my brewing techniques/"

If that's the case, and the use of a decotion can impact the variables you mentioned (plus clarity, IIRC) - why not put that in your aresenal? How is it different, theoretically, from targeting particular characteristics via mash temp, thickness, etc., versus targeting them by boiling some of your grain?

Methinks I have another nominee for the "Unresolved Issues" Papazian...
Quibble on young padawan.

I can still do all of those things without decocting. Mouthfeel is easy. Find the right mix of mash thickness and mash temperature. Easy with some experimenting. Notice I never mentiond removing some of the mash and playing with it? You are barking up the wrong tree here.

I'm not going to decoct because I don't have to. What is so difficult for you guys to understand that you don't need to do it because of the availability of higher modified malts? The 0old timers decocted for that reason--better efficiency. It just so happened that they may have noticed the beers tasted better afterwards. Hmmm...I wonder why?

Let me ask this. How many pro brewers do you think do decoction mashes? They don't, or a VERY large percentage don't. It is a huge waste of time when they can add some melanoidin or aromatic or cara-pils to a big single infusion mash and be done with it. Obviously that = great beer.

I'm not putting down decoctions--there is a purpose for it in some styles. I respect the crap out of Kai because he actually brews like a German brewer. He enjoys the hell out of it. His beers rock. He also brews traditional German styles that might require the extra attention.

But for the rest of the homebrewers that think it is a requirement for every other style because they think it adds something, well, I'll disagree. I said this long ago...it is the "flavor of the week" in homebrewing. For those brewers that decocted their pale ale or their ESB last week--I'll put mine up against yours with the extra doillar I spent on a half pound of aromatic and melanoidin added to the mash.

__________________
On Tap: Lake Walk Pale Ale -- Eternity (Raspberry Stout) -- Nutrocker -- Donnybrook Dark
Primary: Lake Walk Pale Ale
Secondary: Summit IPA
Up Next: Smoked Porter -- Pub Ale -- Watermelon Wheat
Planning:
Gone But Not Forgotten:

www.IronOrrBrewery.com
Dude is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 03:37 PM   #26
EdWort
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
EdWort's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bee Cave, Texas
Posts: 11,969
Liked 309 Times on 160 Posts
Likes Given: 7

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan!
Your neighbor sounds like a pompous bastard...and, in my opinion, the last thing homebrewing needs is pompous bastards who are 100% sure that their way is the best way.
LOL! Sounds like an EAC to me.
EdWort is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 03:55 PM   #27
casebrew
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 850
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoiv
snip..,.It also allowed them to get over 90% effciency which is another major concern for a commercial brewer. He said for home brewing and with the quality of the malts out these days that single infusion was fine for most beer styles the home brewer would try. snip .
Our Elder God of Homebrewing, Charlie, said the same thing. 3-4 steps gained 3% in sugars. Maybe important to huge commercial operation, not to me. But I did try it once, about my 3rd batch. I was so un-sophisicated then that I didn't see any point. Same today, I'll bet.
__________________
So far, I've had more experience thinking than I've had brewing....you don't think they are mutually exclusive, do you?

72 batches so far,
48 wine, mostly Loquat, peach, plum, prickly pear
23 beers and ciders
1 sauerkraut
1 Tequila, from a prickly pear wine experiment that didn't work. I call it "Prickly Heat"
casebrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 04:05 PM   #28
Willsellout
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Willsellout's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Oregon coast
Posts: 914
Default

ask him what he thinks about batch sparging...



Dan
__________________
Disgrunt-Aled Brewery
Primary One-empty
Primary Two-Empty
Secondary One-Empty
Secondary Two-Empty

On Tap: Hobgoblin, Coffee Stout
Bottled: Arrogant Bastard clone, Summit IPA, Apfelwein
Willsellout is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 04:25 PM   #29
Cheesefood
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Poo-Poo Land
Posts: 6,809
Liked 36 Times on 25 Posts

Default

Not to keep poking you, Dude, but is it possible that some brewers might do it as a cost saving measure over keeping additional malts on hand? Especially brewers that source their own grain may decide it's cheaper to decoct than to source and store specialty malts. If one were brewing for consistancy, I'd think that they'd choose process over ingredients since it's easier to reproduce a process than to find consistant ingredients.
__________________
Past Winners: Caramel Cream Ale #1, Hoegaarden Clone, Boom-Boom Vanilla Ale, Lazy Monk Abbey Style, Amarillo Cream Ale. (AG),

Buy a shirt now!!! Please! Did I help you? Buya shirt!
Cool Shirts.


Cheesefood is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2007, 05:50 PM   #30
david_42
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
david_42's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Willamina & Oak Grove, Oregon, USA
Posts: 25,673
Liked 141 Times on 134 Posts

Default

I've done one decoction, on Poor Richard's Ale and only because I was running out of room in the cooler to add hot water. I can't address what if anything it did to the flavor, having never made an ale with a pile of corn before.

I see similar attitudes on rv.net, where old guys are arguing about the current merits of vehicles based on their experiences of 40 & 50 years ago. Ditto, anti-diesel. Ditto, anti-whatever. It's amusing in small quantities.

I know a few pro brewers who have done decoctions, but not as a rule, just for a seasonal. One big problem is the amount of time it takes. More work and one mash run instead of two for the day.


__________________
Remember one unassailable statistic, as explained by the late, great George Carlin: "Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!"

"I would like to die on Mars, just not on impact." Elon Musk
david_42 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can I still single infusion? BigNastyBrew Recipes/Ingredients 5 07-09-2009 10:09 PM
AG Dunkel....single infusion ok? cs2to4 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 1 06-01-2009 02:56 AM
Single infusion vs decoction?? Bulls Beers All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 12 11-04-2008 08:46 PM
Double or Single Infusion? Justinnn All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 15 07-11-2007 04:52 PM
Single Infusion Question cgcaudle All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 10 05-31-2006 05:44 AM


Forum Jump

Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS