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NJtarheel

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With an impulsive decision, when at my local HBS the other day, I bought a starter kit. I did this because I will be brewing a very big Tripel in a couple of weeks. Here are a couple questions:
1 - Other than increasing my yeast supply for my big beer, is making a starter a worthwhile process for a "regular" beer?
2 - Considering I had to purchase an activator, the cost of making a starter for a standard beer is not value-added in a $ point of view.
3 - What the heck am I missing here??? Isn't it easier to buy a Wyeast, etc....?

Thanks forum. With your help I have two great batches under my belt and have two more on my short list....
 
Most wyeast / WL yeasts still require starters.

Wyeast is packaged in two sizes: activator and propagator. The activator can be smacked, swelled and pitched directly into the wort with consideration of gravity. The propagator MUST undergo a 'starting' process to reach the amount of cells needed for clean fermentation.

You only need to make starters for liquid yeasts. Obviously if you are pitching dry (nottingham, saf-ale etc) rehydration is the furthest you need to go. So yes, not only is it worthwhile to make a starter for EVERY beer, it is ESSENTIAL if you are using liquid yeast.

Good luck with the brewskis!
 
It's really a good idea to make starters when using ANY liguid yeast for all beers above 1.020 OG...

The biggest reason I suggest folks make a starter is if you make one you'll have peace of mind. It's especially important if you have questionable situation happenning with your yeast, like not being sure the yeast arrived healthy. ;)

And you won't be starting an "is my yeast dead" thread in a couple of days.

Making a starter first insures that your yeast is still alive and viable before you dump it in your beer. You will be less likely to start one of those "is my yeast dead?" threads that are on here every day.

You will also ensure that you have enough yeast usually the tubes and smack packs are a lot less yeast that you really should use for healthy fermentation.

Making a starter also usually means your beer will take off sooner, because the first thing that the little buggers do in the presence of wort (whether in a flask or in a fermenter) is have an orgy to reproduce enough cells to do the job...So it won't take such a long time in the fermenter since they started doing it in the flask.

Additionally it is better for the yeast to consume and reproduce incrementally rather than just dumping them into the fermenter...The yeast will be less stressed out than if you just dump them in.

Stressed out yeast can lead to a lot of off flavors...maybe even (though rare) the dreaded autolysis....Or the curse of 1.030....getting a stuck fermentation because the yeast have bit the dust.

So making a starter proves your yeast is still healthy, allows you to grow enough yeast to do the job, cuts down on lag time, and ensures that you will not get off flavors or stuck ferementations from stressed out yeast.

Also has to do with the actual pitch rates of the smack packs and tubes, and has to do with the data that Jamil Z has on his mr malty website.

I'll quote some of it, but really you should look at the stuff there;

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Ales & Lagers

The general consensus on pitching rates is that you want to pitch around 1 million cells of viable yeast, for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato. A little less for an ale, a little more for a lager. George Fix states about 1.5 million for a lager and 0.75 million for an ale in his book, An Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Other literature cites a slightly higher amount. I'm going with Fix's numbers and that is what the pitching calculator uses.
The Math

If you're curious, here is the simple math to calculate the number of cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

* There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons.

* A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager.
Pitching From Tubes, Packs, or Dry Yeast

Both White Labs and Wyeast make fantastic products and you can't go wrong with either one. There are differences between their strains and each brand has pluses and minuses yet neither is better than the other across the board. Use the brand your local homebrew shop carries, if you need a way to decide.

A White Labs tube has between 70 and 120 billion cells of 100% viable yeast, depending on the yeast strain. Some cells are much larger than others and there are more or less per ml based on size. (The information on the White Labs web site stating 30 to 50 billion cells is out of date.) We can just assume there are around 100 billion very healthy yeast. You would need 2 tubes if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts.

A Wyeast Activator pack (the really big ones) and the pitchable tubes have an average of 100 billion cells of 100% viable yeast. The smaller packs are around 15-18 billion cells. You would need 2 of the large packs if you were pitching directly into 5.5 gallons of 1.048 wort to get the proper cell counts. For the small packs, you'd need eleven of them!


But to make it easier he has a great pitch rate calculator http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

And according to his numbers on his calculator, really any beer above 1.020, you should be making a starter for.

Me personally when I use liquid yeast I just make a starter. I may not be as anal as some brewers and makes sure that I have the exact cellcount for whatever gravity beer I am making, but I do make one for the above reasons I mentioned, namely peace of mid, and a reduction in lag time.

Seriously, that's one way to insure you have clean tasting beer, not to stress out or underpitch your yeast. You may find the "bothering" to make a starter will make even the less than best kit beer come out tasting great.

:mug:
 
I think a starter with liquid yeast is almost always a positive thing. The Wyeast and White Labs packages contain 75-150 billion cells. That cell count is when the package leaves the manufacturer. After the package is out of their facility, they can't guarantee how it is handled and you don't know if it was kept at the proper temperature or at a steady temperature etc. Also, those cell counts can drop significantly over time depending on handling conditions. Making a starter a) insures viability, that the yeast are alive and will ferment your beer b)encourages growth that leads to a higher cell count and c) gets the yeast active and ready to dive in to your beer and get started. Play around with the pitching calculator on mrmalty.com and see how viability drops over time.
 
So why not just always use dry yeast... if liquid yeast require this extra attention

Because there are ceratain yeast strains that only come in liquid forms. Certain yeast drive flavors, like in Belgian beers which may lend a perrpery or spicyness to the wort. These types of strains can NOT be made into dry forms.

I have found that a lot of new brewers especially, THINK they HAVE to use liquid yeast, but in reality most ales can be made with Notty, Windsor, Us-05, Us-04 and many lagers with basic Saflager.....7-8 bucks a pop for liquid as opposed to $1.50-2.50 for dry, with more cell count, is imho just a waste of money for the majority of a brewer's recipe bank...most commercial ales us a limited range of strains, and those liquid strains are really the same strains that the afore mentioned dry strains cover, for example Us-05 is the famed "Chico strain", so if you are paying 7-8 bucks for Wyeast 1056 American/Chico Ale Yeast, and you STILL have to make a starter to have enough viable cells, then you are ripping yourself off, in terms of time and money....

I use dry yeast for 99% of my beers, for basic ales I use safale 05, for more british styles I us safale 04 and for basic lagers I use saflager..

The only time I use liquid yeast is if I am making a beer where the yeast drives the style, where certain flavor characteristics are derived from the yeast, such as phenols. Like Belgian beers, where you get spicy/peppery flavors from the yeast and higher temp fermentation. Or let's say a wheat beer (needing a lowly flocculant yest) or a Kholsch, where the style of the beer uses a specific yeast strain that is un available in dry form.

6.3 Yeast Forms

Yeast come in two main product forms, dry and liquid. (There is also another form, available as pure cultures on petri dishes or slants, but it is generally used as one would use liquid yeast.) Dry yeast are select, hardy strains that have been dehydrated for storability. There are a lot of yeast cells in a typical 7 gram packet. For best results, it needs to be re-hydrated before it is pitched. For the first-time brewer, a dry ale yeast is highly recommended.

Dry yeast is convenient for the beginning brewer because the packets provide a lot of viable yeast cells, they can be stored for extended periods of time and they can be prepared quickly on brewing day. It is common to use one or two packets (7 - 14 grams) of dried yeast for a typical five gallon batch. This amount of yeast, when properly re-hydrated, provides enough active yeast cells to ensure a strong fermentation. Dry yeast can be stored for extended periods (preferably in the refrigerator) but the packets do degrade with time. This is one of the pitfalls with brewing from the no-name yeast packets taped to the top of a can of malt extract. They are probably more than a year old and may not be very viable. It is better to buy another packet or three of a reputable brewer's yeast that has been kept in the refrigerator at the brewshop. Some leading and reliable brands of dry yeast are DCL Yeast, Yeast Labs (marketed by G.W. Kent, produced by Lallemand of Canada), Cooper's, DanStar (produced by Lallemand), Munton & Fison and Edme.

Dry yeasts are good but the rigor of the dehydration process limits the number of different ale strains that are available and in the case of dry lager yeast, eliminates them almost entirely. A few dry lager yeasts do exist, but popular opinion is that they behave more like ale yeasts than lager. DCL Yeast markets two strains of dry lager yeast, Saflager S-189 and S-23, though only S-23 is currently available in a homebrewing size. The recommended fermentation temperature is 48-59°F. I would advise you to use two packets per 5 gallon batch to be assured of a good pitching rate.

The only thing missing with dry yeast is real individuality, which is where liquid yeasts come in. Many more different strains of yeast are available in liquid form than in dry.
 
And in the grand scheme of things, if you are spending the extra money to get liquid yeast what is a couple more bucks to purchase some bulk DME. I actually enjoy making starters and they aren't that difficult to make. I actually feel re-hydrating dry yeast is more of a pain to do since it has to be done on brew day and I am usually busy doing something else during that time.
 
For me its really just a peace of mind thing. I know my yeast is rarin' and ready to go when I make a starter. That said, on my first batch I didn't do a starter using a WL vial and it came out fine.
 
I actually feel re-hydrating dry yeast is more of a pain to do since it has to be done on brew day and I am usually busy doing something else during that time.

You can't be serious? This literally takes less than 15 seconds start to finish.
 
Revvy hit the nail on the head for me when it comes to why dry or liquid. I started out thinking I had to use liquid for good beer and the LHBS set me straight. I will graduate to other types of beers later but the Irish Ales and English Browns are enjoyable and the dry stuff is working for me.
:mug:
 
You can't be serious? This literally takes less than 15 seconds start to finish.

How does this take less than 15 sec when first you have to boil the water to sterilize, allow it to cool, sprinkle the yeast over the surface, allow it to sit for 15 min, stir gently, then let it sit some more...I think that's a lot more than 15 sec unless you skip the rehydration and directly pitch and therefore destroy a good portion of the yeast. At least with liquid yeast after a starter is made, you can visually see that you increased the cell count and it adds more peace of mind in my opinion.. Just my 2 cents...
 
Personally, I have never done a starter with the dry yeasts and have never had an issue. I just figure it's one more step in the process that doesn't really need to be done. Im sure someday that will change, but for now...
And my LHBS swears by the dry yeasts. A good point is that the liquids have a shorter shelf life, making them prone to be unproductive, and therefore requiring the starter. The dry yeasts, being of sounder body, will keep much better and therfore don't really require the starter. The only time you would need a liquid is for a specialty like a Belgian or something.
 
How does this take less than 15 sec when first you have to boil the water to sterilize, allow it to cool, sprinkle the yeast over the surface, allow it to sit for 15 min, stir gently, then let it sit some more...I think that's a lot more than 15 sec unless you skip the rehydration and directly pitch and therefore destroy a good portion of the yeast. At least with liquid yeast after a starter is made, you can visually see that you increased the cell count and it adds more peace of mind in my opinion.. Just my 2 cents...


If you actually organize your brew day, it takes 15 seconds. Use spring water. No boiling required. While your boil has about 15 minutes left to go, sprinkle the yeast into the rehydration vessel and wait. At pitching time, swirl vessel and pitch. Never had a problem.

Also, if you want to get the temps of the rehydration water to around 90F, microwave it for 12 seconds and call it good. It really takes less than a minute if you're organized.
 
If you actually organize your brew day, it takes 15 seconds. Use spring water. No boiling required. While your boil has about 15 minutes left to go, sprinkle the yeast into the rehydration vessel and wait. At pitching time, swirl vessel and pitch. Never had a problem.

Also, if you want to get the temps of the rehydration water to around 90F, microwave it for 12 seconds and call it good. It really takes less than a minute if you're organized.

And what exactly makes the spring water so magical that it doesn't need to be boiled? Yes, using spring water will make sure there's no chlorine or chloramines in it, but it doesn't guarantee that there's no bacteria in there. I personally would not want to risk using unboiled water in my beer.
 
And what exactly makes the spring water so magical that it doesn't need to be boiled? Yes, using spring water will make sure there's no chlorine or chloramines in it, but it doesn't guarantee that there's no bacteria in there. I personally would not want to risk using unboiled water in my beer.

Exactly!!!!!!

Here's my standard rant to put it in perspective...I think it come more from new brewers little understanding of things, then any revelence. I think because we're afraid of this new beer making thing when we start out (heck half the time we're afraid were gonna make something toxic and poison our friends, OR that if we look at our beer wrong it's going to die a horrible death or both) that we forget some basic truths about the world. I wrote this last week when three folks posted something about this in the same day...

Revvy said:
Do you brush your teeth with your tap water? Do you shower with it and maybe get some in your mouth? Do you use ice made with the water coming into your house? Do you Drink it?

Do you live in a city that is currently having a boil water advisory?

Have we been so brainwashed from buying little plastic bottles of overpriced water (that may have ALSO come out of a tap, and MAY have less governement regulations than our municipal water) that we have forgotten that that sink in our kitchen isn't JUST used to wash dishes with? I have always found this fear that folks have of their own water ridiculous. If you can drink your water you can brew with it (all arguments about chlorimines aside, I'm talking about sanitization.) If you can drink the water out of your tap without getting sick, you can top off your fermenter with it. I've done it all my brewing career and NEVER had any issues.

I've just found this blind trust people have over those tiny plastic bottles over our own home water is ludicrious....

Let's start with an independent four year study of the bottled water industry, completed in 1999 by the Natural Resources Defense Council.1 The report of the results along with a petition to the FDA stated that there were "major gaps in bottled water regulation and that bottled water is not necessarily safer than tap water". The study's principal findings were that although most bottled water seems good quality, "some bottled water contains bacterial contaminants, and several brands of bottled water contain synthetic organic chemicals (such as industrial solvents, chemicals from plastic, or trihalomethanes - the by-products of the chemical reaction between chlorine and organic matter in water) or inorganic contaminants (such as arsenic, a known carcinogen) in at least some bottles".

.........

This leads us to the subject of the chlorination of our public drinking water in the USA. This law is in effect to sterilize and disinfect the water, eradicating all types of bacteria.

According to the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC), which is a nonprofit organization devoted to protecting health and the environment, more than 25% of all bottled water comes from a public source. That's right - it's the same water that's piped to homes and businesses.

How can that happen? Because they can. No one is demanding truth in advertising from water bottling companies!

Standards for purity exist, of course. BUT ...Bottled water purity is regulated by the FDA, and because the FDA puts low priority on water, bottlers are inspected and tested less than once a year. According to one FDA official, it's the manufacturer's responsibility to ensure that the product complies with laws and regulations.

The result: Some do, and some don't. And even worse, if the water is bottled and delivered within the same state, there are NO regulations.

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulates tap water, so if a bottler uses a public source that has passed their inspection, it should be OK to drink - right? Not necessarily.

In tests done by the NRDC, at least one sample from a third of the brands contained bacterial or chemical contaminants,
including carcinogens in levels exceeding state or industry standards. Not to be argumentative, but I have to wonder why any level of carcinogens is OK.

My understanding is that our municipal water sources are tested several times a day. That's how they are able to have a boil water declaration if something is detected.

Personally...I trust my tap water and my plumbing more than I think it's worth buying water, or bothering to boil it, if I don't have a BWA in my town.
 
Fair enough. Truth be told gallon of preboiled water in a sanitized milk jug would do the trick for months. Sure you could fret over the possibility of bacterial contamination after opening the jug 12 times but hey, there are a lot of not-so-sanitary corners we all cut to brew our beer. Have you seen the crazy freak YouTube guy who puts lotion on his arms before brewing? I don't want to be like that dude.
 
If I'm not mistaken, I believe tap water is recommended because the cells need a certain amount of calcium during the rehydration process.
 
All, thanks for your input. This topic surely brings a lot of different perspectives. I have directions from my HBS on how to make a starter.

Regarding the tripel I plan on making next weekend, do I need to make a double batch of yeast starter? I think I am more confused than prior to my initial post.
 
NJtarheel said:
All, thanks for your input. This topic surely brings a lot of different perspectives. I have directions from my HBS on how to make a starter.

Regarding the tripel I plan on making next weekend, do I need to make a double batch of yeast starter? I think I am more confused than prior to my initial post.

Mrmalty.com has a calculator where you can figure out how big of a starter you should use.
 
richbrew99 said:
Plus it's fun to make a yeast starter, just part of the brewing process for me.

I totally agree with this. But I'm weird and i think possibly yeast-obsessed. :D
 
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