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Old 07-31-2013, 03:50 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by LeFreek View Post
After 10 days the SG of the batch with Bosteels yeast dropped to 1021, whereas the reference batch with Nottingham yeast was already at 1012. Taste of the Bosteels batch was better, more mellow. Too early to say if it will be similar to commercial Karmeliet.
Any news on your FG for the bosteels one? Harvested the yeast from a couple bottles and stepped it up, plan to brew a clone tomorrow, wondering what kind of FG I should expect. Also, if the yeast poops out so early, I'm a bit concerned about bottle conditioning, wondering if you've already bottled yours (and if yes, are they carbing properly?).

Cheers!
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:31 PM   #82
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And just when I thought that I killed this lively thread!
I am really brewing like a monk with this beer, in other words: it is still lagering and I did not measure FG again. I would not worry about this for two reasons: Bosteels beers are known to be quite sweet and FG of commercial Karmeliet and Kwak are remarkably high, (2) I did have some fermentation since last post + a friend of mine achieved lower FG with this yeast (1015-ish?). I plan to bottle-condition most of the batch in order to be able to compare it with bottle-conditioned commercial Karmeliet.
I have to warn you though: yeast strain is very sulphury, meaning it smell like manure. Don't worry, it will all go away.

Regards, Freek
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:54 AM   #83
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I have to warn you though: yeast strain is very sulphury, meaning it smell like manure. Don't worry, it will all go away.
Timely, I was getting concerned by the smell coming from my ferm chamber, smelled amazing this morning, very fruity, but it really started to smell like rotten eggs earlier this evening... happy to see it's normal. Brewed it yesterday, followed the recipe, I however cranked up the coriander a bit, .35oz seemed a bit low to me. Will update the thread once I reach FG.

Thanks again for the insights
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:12 PM   #84
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According to Brew Like a Monk, Karmeliet is fermented with 2 yeasts. Wether or not that is 2 yeasts for the primary fermentation or one for primary and a second for re-fermentation in the bottle, I do not know. For those of you culturing this from the bottle, how do you know you aren't just using their bottling yeast?

BTW the FG of Karmeliet is 1.015. I shook the carbonation out of a sample and measured it with my hydrometer to find this out.
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:23 PM   #85
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BTW the FG of Karmeliet is 1.015. I shook the carbonation out of a sample and measured it with my hydrometer to find this out.
THAT's an expensive experiment! But, wow, thanks!
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:36 PM   #86
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According to Brew Like a Monk, Karmeliet is fermented with 2 yeasts. Wether or not that is 2 yeasts for the primary fermentation or one for primary and a second for re-fermentation in the bottle, I do not know. For those of you culturing this from the bottle, how do you know you aren't just using their bottling yeast?
It's possible that we're fiddling with a bottling yeast, but something tells me Bosteels re-yeasts the bottles with whatever yeast(s) they have on hand. Too expensive/complicated to keep multiple strains tightly separate in the same brewery, especially when all your brews use the same yeast(s) (Karmeliet, Kwak...). I brew a Delirium Tremens (Huyghe) clone on a regular basis using the yeast harvested from the bottles, and the taste is spot on. By the way, they also use multiple yeasts, and several others on this forum managed to find out that they all end up in the dregs.

My Karmeliet just stopped fermenting after a bit less than a week, fermentation was quite vigorous, and the others were right, the strain(s) is(are) very sulfury. Bulk aging right now, I plan to lager it later this month, then bottle. We'll have to wait September or even October for a taste test.

One thing I realized after the fact: Bosteels uses Styrian Goldings and Saaz, like most Belgians, and not Hallertau. I suppose the recipe posted by the OP was designed based on the fact that he's not using the Bosteels yeast, and maybe that's why he picked this hop, but since I'm using the real yeast, I plan to switch hops next time I brew this one.

Cheers!
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:30 PM   #87
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Too expensive/complicated to keep multiple strains tightly separate in the same brewery, especially when all your brews use the same yeast(s) (Karmeliet, Kwak...).

My Karmeliet just stopped fermenting after a bit less than a week, fermentation was quite vigorous, and the others were right, the strain(s) is(are) very sulfury. Bulk aging right now, I plan to lager it later this month, then bottle. We'll have to wait September or even October for a taste test.

Cheers!
I am not arguing that you do not have the correct primary yeast. I hope you have the right yeast because I'd like to try it someday but I have seen nothing to convince me that his is indeed the primary yeast.

BTW it's apparently not too expensive to keep two yeasts going in the same brewery. Many european breweries do this and recondition in the bottle with a lager strain because they don't require a special warm room for bottle conditioning. Primary yeasts do require warm bottle conditioning for various periods of time because of the existing abv at the time of bottling.

Lager strains are well known for their prolific sulphur production, so you have that FWIW.

As to the original recipe. you are right on the hops being styrian and saaz. The grain bill, however should include a portion of Barley (pilsner), wheat and oats. All three in both malted and unmalted forms.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:12 PM   #88
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I am not arguing that you do not have the correct primary yeast. I hope you have the right yeast because I'd like to try it someday but I have seen nothing to convince me that his is indeed the primary yeast.

BTW it's apparently not too expensive to keep two yeasts going in the same brewery. Many european breweries do this and recondition in the bottle with a lager strain because they don't require a special warm room for bottle conditioning. Primary yeasts do require warm bottle conditioning for various periods of time because of the existing abv at the time of bottling.

Lager strains are well known for their prolific sulphur production, so you have that FWIW.
You're correct, there's no way to tell whether the yeast I harvested is the real deal, but since most Belgian breweries bottle with the primary strain(s), I'm hopeful (Chimay, Huyghe, Duvel, Achouffe to name a few).

You also do bring up a good point about the sulfur smell, I could have very well harvested a lager yeast (now you got me a bit worried). On the other hand, others who have used it apparently ended up with a fairly high FG (1.015-ish), just like the real Karmeliet... you would think a lager yeast would take that beer much lower than that, especially when fermented at 70F+, and given the fact that lager yeast can also metabolize maltotriose, raffinose and melibiose. Since fermentation seems to have stopped, I'll take a gravity reading later this week, I'll let you know where it ended up.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:02 PM   #89
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But if they do bottle with a lager yeast for bottle refermentation they'd be doing it well under 70F.

I'll be watching to see how things turn out. I've been working on the recipe for some time now and have a grain bill and spicing that I will use for the first iteration. The yeast is the biggest sticking point. Without the real yeast I think I'm going to use WY3787 or WLP575 (a blend of WLP500, 530, and 550). FWIW Northern Brewer uses WY3522 for their clone.
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Old 08-08-2013, 03:39 PM   #90
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But if they do bottle with a lager yeast for bottle refermentation they'd be doing it well under 70F.
Ok, but then we would end up with bottle bombs since eventually the bottles sit at 70F+ for months before you buy them. Maybe I'm missing your point

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The yeast is the biggest sticking point. Without the real yeast I think I'm going to use WY3787 or WLP575 (a blend of WLP500, 530, and 550). FWIW Northern Brewer uses WY3522 for their clone.
If you can wait a couple of days, I'll do a FG reading, will let you know if the taste is close (it's so young, it will likely taste green, but you never know). LeFreek will most likely be done way before me, maybe he can chime in...

As for the yeasts you mention:
  • Based on my experience, 3522 is very attenuative, I'm sure the end result would taste great, but I doubt it would taste like Karmeliet, would most likely taste more like Chouffe, i.e. a dry tripel.
  • I attempted a clone in the past using 1388 based on this recipe, again, tasted great, like a very fruity Duvel, but nothing like the real deal. For some reason, bottles took over 4 mos to carb with this recipe, might be due the fact that I ended up with an ABV higher than expected.
  • IMO WLP575 will yield better results than 3787/530 alone, but that's me.

Since the Bosteels yeast poops out early, you might want to mash hotter than usual if you plan to use another yeast, or skip the sugar addition, otherwise you might end up with a beer much dryer than the real deal. My $0.02
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