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Old 01-31-2011, 08:37 PM   #11
SumnerH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Exorcisto View Post
Somehow, beer has been aged in OAK barrels for millenia... It seems to me that is oxygen permeability were an issue, then England, Belgium, and Germany would be covered in clay vessels, not old barrels.
Oak barrels have only been widely used (for anything) for about 2000 years, but palm and other barrels go back a while earlier.

Most British and German barrels were lined with pitch to help make them oxygen-impermeable, but there's some evidence of unlined barrel aging going back a pretty long time (centuries) in Czech breweries in particular.

For wild brewing of lambics and Flanders reds, oak barrels have been used for about as long as those styles have existed (which is less than a millenium, but still centuries). People who use glass or stainless fermenters often go out of their way to use staves in place of corks or other methods of getting some oxygen exchange ongoing--Flanders reds, in particular, need some amount of O2 to motivate the acetobacter.


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Old 01-31-2011, 10:59 PM   #12
El_Exorcisto
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Insanity yes, I'll grant you that. But so is the neurosis behind: sanitation, oxygen permeability, yeast pitching, mashing temps, stuck fermentations, secondary, etc... The point being that oak permits measurable amounts of air to pass. If a dowel is cut with the grain right, you can blow through a red oak dowel. White oak much less so, but infinitely greater than plastic. If oak worked, then plastic should work wonderfully.



 
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Old 01-31-2011, 11:08 PM   #13
certaut
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I have done low budget quick beers in a water bottle, that I got the water in.
I only rinsed after racking and returned it when I bought another bottle of water(no cleaning)
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:19 AM   #14
MalFet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Exorcisto
Insanity yes, I'll grant you that. But so is the neurosis behind: sanitation, oxygen permeability, yeast pitching, mashing temps, stuck fermentations, secondary, etc... The point being that oak permits measurable amounts of air to pass. If a dowel is cut with the grain right, you can blow through a red oak dowel. White oak much less so, but infinitely greater than plastic. If oak worked, then plastic should work wonderfully.
Not insanity like iconoclastic, but insanity like incoherent. Are you claiming that plastic isn't meaningfully oxygen permeable, or that oxygen isn't a problem for beer. Your first post seems to imply the former and this one the latter. Arguing that plastic is a good fermenting vessel material is one thing, but claiming that oxygen won't hurt beer is something else entirely. Maybe you don't mind the taste of oxidized beer, but I find it pretty unpleasant.

More to the issue at hand, though, I used a Poland Springs bottle for a 6 month ferment not long ago with no ill effects. Not that this is definitive proof or anything, but it's another vote for using something like this for a sour. Let us know how it goes
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:35 PM   #15
Nowuries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by certaut View Post
I have done low budget quick beers in a water bottle, that I got the water in.
I only rinsed after racking and returned it when I bought another bottle of water(no cleaning)
I completely agree!
One of my best brews to date (Oatmeal Stout), I ended up aging in a used water carboy for two months and it was wonderful!

 
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:43 PM   #16
Nowuries
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slightly off topic... Big breweries as well as many homebrewers do open fermentations, no airlock, and many with out anything covering the brewing vessel .... It does make for a different tasting brew... but wonderful none-the-less. So oxygen permeability doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.

Besides, it would seem to me that during fermentation (and often well into aging) you have positive pressure from the co2, how can air leak in when co2 is fighting to get out? Am I looking at that wrong?

 
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:54 PM   #17
rodneypierce
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what they are saying Nowuries, is that the plastic water bottles are oxygen permiable, IE: they actually let oxygen THROUGH the plastic. Do I buy all that jazz?? no. Do they let oxygen in? Sure, im sure they do, but not enough to matter IMHO. Its a huge debate of garbage as far as im concerned. I have 3 brews going in plastic water bottles as we speak, and I will put money on them turning out just great, and not have some "horrid VINEGAR taste" to them. I think its blown out of proportion, and over rated. Just my .02

 
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Old 02-04-2011, 12:06 AM   #18
MalFet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowuries View Post
Besides, it would seem to me that during fermentation (and often well into aging) you have positive pressure from the co2, how can air leak in when co2 is fighting to get out? Am I looking at that wrong?
Not that I disagree with your broader point, but I think the concern is about aging. The CO2 pressure differential quickly drops out relatively soon after fermentation ends, especially if there are changes in temperature (even relatively modest ones).

 
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Old 02-04-2011, 01:47 AM   #19
Nowuries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodneypierce View Post
what they are saying Nowuries, is that the plastic water bottles are oxygen permiable, IE: they actually let oxygen THROUGH the plastic. Do I buy all that jazz?? no. Do they let oxygen in? Sure, im sure they do, but not enough to matter IMHO. Its a huge debate of garbage as far as im concerned. I have 3 brews going in plastic water bottles as we speak, and I will put money on them turning out just great, and not have some "horrid VINEGAR taste" to them. I think its blown out of proportion, and over rated. Just my .02
Ok, that's what I thought... Yea, doesn't make much sense to me either.

 
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Old 02-04-2011, 01:50 AM   #20
Nowuries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MalFet View Post
Not that I disagree with your broader point, but I think the concern is about aging. The CO2 pressure differential quickly drops out relatively soon after fermentation ends, especially if there are changes in temperature (even relatively modest ones).
I can see that with long term aging. One I let go for a long time had suck back in the air lock from temp change. So I can see permeability being an issue over long term.



 
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