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Old 10-22-2010, 08:57 PM   #1
jgln
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May 2008
Southern, NJ
Posts: 3,486
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Anyone try this and have success? Any tips? I was wondering also if vineyards would give away or sell their vines they cut back every year or would they see it as a threat to their local business. We have table grapes, but I was thinking of starting a vineyard with better quality wine grapes. I know when we cut back our table grapes we have lots of vine on the ground. Each year propagate and grow the vineyard, saves money.

 
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:14 PM   #2
Duganson
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Oct 2010
Grand Junction, Co
Posts: 29


Its possible, but at $4-5$ a vine and the assurance of viable plants, I'd go with store bought. This also allows you to play with multiple varietals making it easier to find the one that grows best on your land.
For the 1/4 acre experimental vineyard I started a few years back I had the opportunity to plant 5 different types of Venifera in numbers between 25 to 50 per. I think the grand total for the experiment was $300. Not too bad.

 
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:31 PM   #3
martinworswick
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Sep 2008
southernlakes,new zealand
Posts: 285
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i took a bunch of canes to propagate,they are pinot noir, i trimmed them so each section had 3 "bud" and put them all in 1 big pot, i went through them after a season and over half had developed roots which i planted on in their own separate pots, we'll see what happens from here.....

 
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Old 10-24-2010, 06:14 PM   #4
noid
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Jan 2009
Philadelphia, South Jersey
Posts: 16

FYI, any of the Euro types of grapes need to be grafted on North American native stock plants to grow well here in the states. Almost all vineyards use grafted plants.

The problems you are going to run into without grafting is lots of root diseases that you will not be able to control. Do a little reading on the history of grapevines. (BTW, if you are looking at doing a group buy, I might be interested. I am also here in South Jersey.)

If you like sweet wines you can make very good wine out of our natives. One of the most widely used is Concord grapes in our region.

Visit some of our local vineyards here in South Jersey on an off day and they will more than likely take the time to talk with you about your ideas. Some of them offer tours for a small fee. I got lots of my questions answered that way.

 
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Old 10-24-2010, 07:55 PM   #5
Rossnaree
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Sep 2008
Upstate NY
Posts: 217
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There are so many good commercial sources, I'd recommend buying from reputable nurseries. While noid is correct regarding the vinifera vines, there are some excellent hybrids available that negate the need for grafting. Granted, a few hybrids will actually benefit from grafting (not because of low phyloxera resistance, rather because a few type's own-rooted don't seem to exhibit adequate vigor), but in general own-rooted will do quite well. You can buy cuttings, but rooted cuttings put you and your vines so far ahead of the game that you'll quickly realize that the few bucks saved wasn't worth it.

Miller's, Stark Bros., and Double A Vineyards (not necessarily in that order) come to mind; while I like Double A, they tend to have a lot of early sell-outs even though they carry an enormous selection.

Also keep in mind that a part of the reason they won't give you cuttings is that some varieties are patented, and unauthorized propogation is a crime. Not saying that's what's going on with your local vineyards, but it is a possibility.

Not all hybrids will give you the foxy/skunky hybrid or labrusca aromas or flavors. Coirot Noir comes to mind; it also has an excellent tannin structure. Traminette is very much like one of its parents, Gevurtztraminer, but survives the winters here in 4B/5A, and also has an uncanny ability to adapt to its environment in such a way that, as long as the zone, temperatures, water and growing season are at least within reason of its needs, the acid-sugar balance is just about perfect. Chardonel, a cross derived from Chardonnay, also does well here, and I've have had good success with Chambourcin as well as Cynthiana (a decidedly American, and decidedly excellent, red wine grape).

If you get your own rooted vines to start with, and they're not protected by patent, you can make all the cuttings from your own vines that you'd care to and that the prunings will allow once the canes are large enough for making cuttings. And while there are many ways of propogation by cuttings, some are better than others. My personal opinion favors the process of inverting the cuttings in clean sand (to keep what will be the vines cool and out of exposure to the sun) while exposing what will be the root end to a relatively warmer temperature and exposed to sunlight until the callous forms and rootlets begin to develop. This is necessary in order to give the roots a head-start and get them growing before the buds break and begin to demand from the root stores what they haven't even got yet - heck, unless you're doing it this way, there AREN'T any roots yet.

Anyways, all of that information is out there and easily found by searching. No point in me going over it here.

I also grow Concord and King of the North (a naturally occurring labrusca-riparia hybrid). This year pretty much everything around me for a long way was frozen-out by the late cold and snow in May, but the Concord was still on track with almost 50# per vine! The King of the north was way down, I think I only got about 14# per vine but the quality was very good. All my grapes went either into wine (varietals, if you will) or into meads/pyments. It's going to be a good next couple of years as everything matures in its turn.
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Some knowledge will never be shared, not from a desire to conceal it, but because it is so common to the individual that it is assumed to be already known.

Primary: Chardonel
Secondary: Apfelwein, Chambourcin, Blackstone Pond American Ale, King of the North, Concord, 2nd wine from pulp of both
Bottled: Bavarian Hefeweizen, Dortmunder, King of the North (2010), Apfelwein (2010), Lesser Wilderness Mead (2010), King of the North (2nd wine - 2010)

 
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:04 PM   #6
Duganson
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Oct 2010
Grand Junction, Co
Posts: 29


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossnaree View Post

Not all hybrids will give you the foxy/skunky hybrid or labrusca aromas or flavors. Coirot Noir comes to mind; it also has an excellent tannin structure. Traminette is very much like one of its parents, Gevurtztraminer, but survives the winters here in 4B/5A, and also has an uncanny ability to adapt to its environment in such a way that, as long as the zone, temperatures, water and growing season are at least within reason of its needs, the acid-sugar balance is just about perfect. Chardonel, a cross derived from Chardonnay, also does well here, and I've have had good success with Chambourcin as well as Cynthiana (a decidedly American, and decidedly excellent, red wine grape).
Great list, exactly what I would have suggested. I would also suggest Cayuga White picked early for a nice Riesling-like blender. I'd also look into Seyval in Jersey.

 
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Old 10-24-2010, 08:40 PM   #7
Rossnaree
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Sep 2008
Upstate NY
Posts: 217
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YES!!! Cayuga White is on my list; only God knows why I haven't planted them yet! Actually, long story but that's for another time; a comedy of errors occurred... We could all go on forever about the types we want, y'know? Especially when I get looking at all the new varieties that Double A has going on. I swear, my wife can tell ya -- my "grape vine wish list" is worse than any kid's Christmas list! Especially in the winter, it almost aches wanting to get out there and DO something instead of watching a lake-effect white-out with screaming winds and sub-zero temps outside where your vines are and wondering if they'll make it till spring... ah crap, it is coming again, isn't it? If it weren't for cold-hardy types, I'd really hate winters here.
__________________
Some knowledge will never be shared, not from a desire to conceal it, but because it is so common to the individual that it is assumed to be already known.

Primary: Chardonel
Secondary: Apfelwein, Chambourcin, Blackstone Pond American Ale, King of the North, Concord, 2nd wine from pulp of both
Bottled: Bavarian Hefeweizen, Dortmunder, King of the North (2010), Apfelwein (2010), Lesser Wilderness Mead (2010), King of the North (2nd wine - 2010)

 
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:51 PM   #8
jgln
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May 2008
Southern, NJ
Posts: 3,486
Liked 54 Times on 42 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duganson View Post
Its possible, but at $4-5$ a vine and the assurance of viable plants, I'd go with store bought. This also allows you to play with multiple varietals making it easier to find the one that grows best on your land.
For the 1/4 acre experimental vineyard I started a few years back I had the opportunity to plant 5 different types of Venifera in numbers between 25 to 50 per. I think the grand total for the experiment was $300. Not too bad.
$4-$5 a vine? Are you saying you are buying rooted vines for that much? The only rooted vines I have ever seen for sale were much more than that, wine types as much as $25. I have never seen just the vines for sale not potted. Where is this? Can you send a link?

 
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:53 PM   #9
jgln
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May 2008
Southern, NJ
Posts: 3,486
Liked 54 Times on 42 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by noid View Post
FYI, any of the Euro types of grapes need to be grafted on North American native stock plants to grow well here in the states. Almost all vineyards use grafted plants.

The problems you are going to run into without grafting is lots of root diseases that you will not be able to control. Do a little reading on the history of grapevines. (BTW, if you are looking at doing a group buy, I might be interested. I am also here in South Jersey.)

If you like sweet wines you can make very good wine out of our natives. One of the most widely used is Concord grapes in our region.

Visit some of our local vineyards here in South Jersey on an off day and they will more than likely take the time to talk with you about your ideas. Some of them offer tours for a small fee. I got lots of my questions answered that way.
I just did some internet searches and wanted to see if anyone actually tried it. This is just an idea for now. I was thinking it would take some time to get them producing but I really don't have an end plan yet. If I do decide I will contact you to see if you are still interested.

 
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Old 10-27-2010, 05:00 PM   #10
jgln
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May 2008
Southern, NJ
Posts: 3,486
Liked 54 Times on 42 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossnaree View Post
There are so many good commercial sources, I'd recommend buying from reputable nurseries. While noid is correct regarding the vinifera vines, there are some excellent hybrids available that negate the need for grafting. Granted, a few hybrids will actually benefit from grafting (not because of low phyloxera resistance, rather because a few type's own-rooted don't seem to exhibit adequate vigor), but in general own-rooted will do quite well. You can buy cuttings, but rooted cuttings put you and your vines so far ahead of the game that you'll quickly realize that the few bucks saved wasn't worth it.

Miller's, Stark Bros., and Double A Vineyards (not necessarily in that order) come to mind; while I like Double A, they tend to have a lot of early sell-outs even though they carry an enormous selection.

Also keep in mind that a part of the reason they won't give you cuttings is that some varieties are patented, and unauthorized propogation is a crime. Not saying that's what's going on with your local vineyards, but it is a possibility.

Not all hybrids will give you the foxy/skunky hybrid or labrusca aromas or flavors. Coirot Noir comes to mind; it also has an excellent tannin structure. Traminette is very much like one of its parents, Gevurtztraminer, but survives the winters here in 4B/5A, and also has an uncanny ability to adapt to its environment in such a way that, as long as the zone, temperatures, water and growing season are at least within reason of its needs, the acid-sugar balance is just about perfect. Chardonel, a cross derived from Chardonnay, also does well here, and I've have had good success with Chambourcin as well as Cynthiana (a decidedly American, and decidedly excellent, red wine grape).

If you get your own rooted vines to start with, and they're not protected by patent, you can make all the cuttings from your own vines that you'd care to and that the prunings will allow once the canes are large enough for making cuttings. And while there are many ways of propogation by cuttings, some are better than others. My personal opinion favors the process of inverting the cuttings in clean sand (to keep what will be the vines cool and out of exposure to the sun) while exposing what will be the root end to a relatively warmer temperature and exposed to sunlight until the callous forms and rootlets begin to develop. This is necessary in order to give the roots a head-start and get them growing before the buds break and begin to demand from the root stores what they haven't even got yet - heck, unless you're doing it this way, there AREN'T any roots yet.

Anyways, all of that information is out there and easily found by searching. No point in me going over it here.

I also grow Concord and King of the North (a naturally occurring labrusca-riparia hybrid). This year pretty much everything around me for a long way was frozen-out by the late cold and snow in May, but the Concord was still on track with almost 50# per vine! The King of the north was way down, I think I only got about 14# per vine but the quality was very good. All my grapes went either into wine (varietals, if you will) or into meads/pyments. It's going to be a good next couple of years as everything matures in its turn.
Thanks for all the input. I will search out those places you mention. I think I am going to try rooting what I have now (Concord and Thompson seedless) and see if I succeed. I have a lot to think about here, it was just an idea at this point, information gathering. I also do not think I will be a winery so I need to find out what I can grow that will sell and to who or if I even can. I see you mention buying rooted cuttings, you see I did not know you could do that. Grafting, that sounds like more work than I was expecting.

 
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