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Old 11-28-2012, 11:06 PM   #521
ajdelange
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willum View Post
According to Bru'n Water 1 gram in 10 gallons increases my calcium to 30.3 and my bicarbonate to 96.
The molecular weight of Ca(OH2) is 74.093 grams/mol. One gram is thus 1/74.03 = 0.013508 or 13.5 mmol. Ten gallons is 37.854 L so that's 13.5/37.854 = 0.35 mmoL/L. As calcium's atomic weight is 40 mg/mmol that's 14 mg/L. With 16 mg/L calcium already in the water adding 14 gets you pretty close to 30 so check on the calcium.

OTOH your water has alkalinity of 46 which at pH 7.3 corresponds to a bicarbonate content of 53.5 mg/L. Adding 1 gram of Ca(OH)2 will raise the pH to 10.58 and in so doing convert bicarbonate to carbonate. The solution will be saturated with calcium carbonate some of which may or may not precipitate. You are effectively doing 'lime treatment' of your water. Your bicarbonate goes down but your alkalinity goes up to 80 (assuming there is no precipitation) while the bicarbonate actually goes down to about 26.

Many of the spreadsheets and calculators convert alkalinity to bicarbonate by

bicarbonate = 61*alkalinity/50.

This is OK if the pH is below 8 or so but, as in this case where the pH is higher, it's not that simple.

 
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:55 AM   #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
The molecular weight of Ca(OH2) is 74.093 grams/mol. One gram is thus 1/74.03 = 0.013508 or 13.5 mmol. Ten gallons is 37.854 L so that's 13.5/37.854 = 0.35 mmoL/L. As calcium's atomic weight is 40 mg/mmol that's 14 mg/L. With 16 mg/L calcium already in the water adding 14 gets you pretty close to 30 so check on the calcium.

OTOH your water has alkalinity of 46 which at pH 7.3 corresponds to a bicarbonate content of 53.5 mg/L. Adding 1 gram of Ca(OH)2 will raise the pH to 10.58 and in so doing convert bicarbonate to carbonate. The solution will be saturated with calcium carbonate some of which may or may not precipitate. You are effectively doing 'lime treatment' of your water. Your bicarbonate goes down but your alkalinity goes up to 80 (assuming there is no precipitation) while the bicarbonate actually goes down to about 26.

Many of the spreadsheets an calculators convert alkalinity to bicarbonate by

bicarbonate = 61*alkalinity/50.

This is OK if the pH is below 8 or so but, as in this case where the pH is higher, it's not that simple.
I am starting to understand why you recommend gypsum or calcium chloride to increase calcium. It does not increase the alkalinity, like Ca(OH)2 does. I am still taking this all in, but that seems like adding the lime, would be counter productive to what I am looking to achieve.

 
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:08 AM   #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willum

I am starting to understand why you recommend gypsum or calcium chloride to increase calcium. It does not increase the alkalinity, like Ca(OH)2 does. I am still taking this all in, but that seems like adding the lime, would be counter productive to what I am looking to achieve.
Pretty much. Lime is useful when you actually want to raise the pH due to a mash pH you determine is too low. But that's about it, and such beers are fairly uncommon.

 
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:39 PM   #524
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/brag - about to get a free 5 stage filter with RO from my pops - /brag.

Now I just need a PH meter

 
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:25 PM   #525
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New to this (impressive) forum and came here by way of discovering the EZ Water Calculator (how that happened I can no longer recall). Hate to start with taking as opposed to giving, but in the EZ WC raised the question: Assuming the mash is set as to pH and ions based on salt additions, is that the end of it? Or, should one care about the final ppm of the various ions resulting from the sparge water as well? For example, Ca may be 136 ppm in the mash, but when the sparge water volume is added into the mix it drops to 68. Certain beer styles rely heavily on ions for flavor character (IPA and SO4, for example). Any input would be appreciated.


NanoMan

 
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:33 PM   #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NanoMan View Post
New to this (impressive) forum and came here by way of discovering the EZ Water Calculator (how that happened I can no longer recall). Hate to start with taking as opposed to giving, but in the EZ WC raised the question: Assuming the mash is set as to pH and ions based on salt additions, is that the end of it? Or, should one care about the final ppm of the various ions resulting from the sparge water as well? For example, Ca may be 136 ppm in the mash, but when the sparge water volume is added into the mix it drops to 68. Certain beer styles rely heavily on ions for flavor character (IPA and SO4, for example). Any input would be appreciated.


NanoMan
You've answered your own question. Use the PPM values after sparging to target the stylistic ion values to suit your tastes.
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:34 PM   #527
ajdelange
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Get the mash pH right and you are pretty much free to 'salt to taste' beyond that. One thing you can do is add sulfate and chloride salts to finished beer to see if you think those additions improve or degrade the taste of the beer. If the former then add more either in the mash, to the sparge water or in the kettle. If the latter then figure out how, if possible, to remove the offending ion from your next batch.

 
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Old 12-20-2012, 08:40 PM   #528
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Thank you both for the quck responses and the ideas. Gives me things to ponder.

NanoMan

 
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:30 AM   #529
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Just to correct my understanding, using the Brun water spreadsheet to set up water profiles you select the region you want to emulate as far as sulfate, chloride and sodum, and you make minor adjustments in order to hit the right mash PH by adjustments.

I have essentially done this to a Hefeweizen a dunkelweizen, and a munich dunkel. the first two came out well, the 3rd is lagering and I am about to brew a Dortmunder export. in the spreadsheet it states a SO/Cl ratio of 2.5. So that tells me I need to bump up the chloride to get an appropriate ratio of 1.3 for this balanced malty/hoppy beer style. Should I really try and hit the 330 ppm sulfate amount or can I dillute it. Is the ratio more critical or high amount along with the ratio?
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:49 AM   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaSaBiS View Post
Just to correct my understanding, using the Brun water spreadsheet to set up water profiles you select the region you want to emulate as far as sulfate, chloride and sodum, and you make minor adjustments in order to hit the right mash PH by adjustments.

I have essentially done this to a Hefeweizen a dunkelweizen, and a munich dunkel. the first two came out well, the 3rd is lagering and I am about to brew a Dortmunder export. in the spreadsheet it states a SO/Cl ratio of 2.5. So that tells me I need to bump up the chloride to get an appropriate ratio of 1.3 for this balanced malty/hoppy beer style. Should I really try and hit the 330 ppm sulfate amount or can I dillute it. Is the ratio more critical or high amount along with the ratio?
I've never brewed a Dortmunder, so I can't provide specific numbers, but in general you want a lot of minerals in a Dortmunder.

 
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