A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer - Page 53 - Home Brew Forums

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11-28-2012, 11:06 PM   #521
ajdelange
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Aug 2010
McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Willum According to Bru'n Water 1 gram in 10 gallons increases my calcium to 30.3 and my bicarbonate to 96.
The molecular weight of Ca(OH2) is 74.093 grams/mol. One gram is thus 1/74.03 = 0.013508 or 13.5 mmol. Ten gallons is 37.854 L so that's 13.5/37.854 = 0.35 mmoL/L. As calcium's atomic weight is 40 mg/mmol that's 14 mg/L. With 16 mg/L calcium already in the water adding 14 gets you pretty close to 30 so check on the calcium.

OTOH your water has alkalinity of 46 which at pH 7.3 corresponds to a bicarbonate content of 53.5 mg/L. Adding 1 gram of Ca(OH)2 will raise the pH to 10.58 and in so doing convert bicarbonate to carbonate. The solution will be saturated with calcium carbonate some of which may or may not precipitate. You are effectively doing 'lime treatment' of your water. Your bicarbonate goes down but your alkalinity goes up to 80 (assuming there is no precipitation) while the bicarbonate actually goes down to about 26.

Many of the spreadsheets and calculators convert alkalinity to bicarbonate by

bicarbonate = 61*alkalinity/50.

This is OK if the pH is below 8 or so but, as in this case where the pH is higher, it's not that simple.

11-29-2012, 03:55 AM   #522
Willum

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Apr 2011
South River, NJ
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by ajdelange The molecular weight of Ca(OH2) is 74.093 grams/mol. One gram is thus 1/74.03 = 0.013508 or 13.5 mmol. Ten gallons is 37.854 L so that's 13.5/37.854 = 0.35 mmoL/L. As calcium's atomic weight is 40 mg/mmol that's 14 mg/L. With 16 mg/L calcium already in the water adding 14 gets you pretty close to 30 so check on the calcium. OTOH your water has alkalinity of 46 which at pH 7.3 corresponds to a bicarbonate content of 53.5 mg/L. Adding 1 gram of Ca(OH)2 will raise the pH to 10.58 and in so doing convert bicarbonate to carbonate. The solution will be saturated with calcium carbonate some of which may or may not precipitate. You are effectively doing 'lime treatment' of your water. Your bicarbonate goes down but your alkalinity goes up to 80 (assuming there is no precipitation) while the bicarbonate actually goes down to about 26. Many of the spreadsheets an calculators convert alkalinity to bicarbonate by bicarbonate = 61*alkalinity/50. This is OK if the pH is below 8 or so but, as in this case where the pH is higher, it's not that simple.
I am starting to understand why you recommend gypsum or calcium chloride to increase calcium. It does not increase the alkalinity, like Ca(OH)2 does. I am still taking this all in, but that seems like adding the lime, would be counter productive to what I am looking to achieve.

11-29-2012, 06:08 AM   #523
emjay

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Jan 2011
Toronto, Ontario
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Willum I am starting to understand why you recommend gypsum or calcium chloride to increase calcium. It does not increase the alkalinity, like Ca(OH)2 does. I am still taking this all in, but that seems like adding the lime, would be counter productive to what I am looking to achieve.
Pretty much. Lime is useful when you actually want to raise the pH due to a mash pH you determine is too low. But that's about it, and such beers are fairly uncommon.

12-16-2012, 05:39 PM   #524
phoenixs4r
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Jun 2011
Hayward, California
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/brag - about to get a free 5 stage filter with RO from my pops - /brag.

Now I just need a PH meter

12-20-2012, 08:25 PM   #525
NanoMan
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Dec 2012
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New to this (impressive) forum and came here by way of discovering the EZ Water Calculator (how that happened I can no longer recall). Hate to start with taking as opposed to giving, but in the EZ WC raised the question: Assuming the mash is set as to pH and ions based on salt additions, is that the end of it? Or, should one care about the final ppm of the various ions resulting from the sparge water as well? For example, Ca may be 136 ppm in the mash, but when the sparge water volume is added into the mix it drops to 68. Certain beer styles rely heavily on ions for flavor character (IPA and SO4, for example). Any input would be appreciated.

NanoMan

12-20-2012, 08:33 PM   #526
jmf143
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May 2010
Wixom, Michigan
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by NanoMan New to this (impressive) forum and came here by way of discovering the EZ Water Calculator (how that happened I can no longer recall). Hate to start with taking as opposed to giving, but in the EZ WC raised the question: Assuming the mash is set as to pH and ions based on salt additions, is that the end of it? Or, should one care about the final ppm of the various ions resulting from the sparge water as well? For example, Ca may be 136 ppm in the mash, but when the sparge water volume is added into the mix it drops to 68. Certain beer styles rely heavily on ions for flavor character (IPA and SO4, for example). Any input would be appreciated. NanoMan
You've answered your own question. Use the PPM values after sparging to target the stylistic ion values to suit your tastes.
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12-20-2012, 08:34 PM   #527
ajdelange
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McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
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Get the mash pH right and you are pretty much free to 'salt to taste' beyond that. One thing you can do is add sulfate and chloride salts to finished beer to see if you think those additions improve or degrade the taste of the beer. If the former then add more either in the mash, to the sparge water or in the kettle. If the latter then figure out how, if possible, to remove the offending ion from your next batch.

12-20-2012, 08:40 PM   #528
NanoMan
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Dec 2012
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Thank you both for the quck responses and the ideas. Gives me things to ponder.

NanoMan

12-21-2012, 12:30 AM   #529
KaSaBiS
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Mar 2011
Cincinnati, ohio
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Just to correct my understanding, using the Brun water spreadsheet to set up water profiles you select the region you want to emulate as far as sulfate, chloride and sodum, and you make minor adjustments in order to hit the right mash PH by adjustments.

I have essentially done this to a Hefeweizen a dunkelweizen, and a munich dunkel. the first two came out well, the 3rd is lagering and I am about to brew a Dortmunder export. in the spreadsheet it states a SO/Cl ratio of 2.5. So that tells me I need to bump up the chloride to get an appropriate ratio of 1.3 for this balanced malty/hoppy beer style. Should I really try and hit the 330 ppm sulfate amount or can I dillute it. Is the ratio more critical or high amount along with the ratio?
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 Originally Posted by Common N00B I just got a Mr Beer kit and want to brew a Double Imperial Blueberry Heffy Witesit....we have no air conditioning and live next to the sun...do you think I can logger and bottle this in time for a party I will be having next week?

12-21-2012, 12:49 AM   #530
afr0byte
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Aug 2010
Vermont
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by KaSaBiS Just to correct my understanding, using the Brun water spreadsheet to set up water profiles you select the region you want to emulate as far as sulfate, chloride and sodum, and you make minor adjustments in order to hit the right mash PH by adjustments. I have essentially done this to a Hefeweizen a dunkelweizen, and a munich dunkel. the first two came out well, the 3rd is lagering and I am about to brew a Dortmunder export. in the spreadsheet it states a SO/Cl ratio of 2.5. So that tells me I need to bump up the chloride to get an appropriate ratio of 1.3 for this balanced malty/hoppy beer style. Should I really try and hit the 330 ppm sulfate amount or can I dillute it. Is the ratio more critical or high amount along with the ratio?
I've never brewed a Dortmunder, so I can't provide specific numbers, but in general you want a lot of minerals in a Dortmunder.