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Old 09-30-2010, 07:33 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrregularPulse View Post
I think people get too hung on "code". I had an electrician over this spring to talk about splicing into my stove line to add a plug in the garage for my brewery. I asked about code, he said, it's your house. You're allowed to do whatever you want as long as you run the appropriate wire size for the load.
As a licensed Professional Engineer who deals with code on a daily basis, I would not let that electrician anywhere near my house. Of course, I also would probably do 90% of all wiring in my house myself.

You are most certainly NOT allowed to do whatever your want as long as you run the appropriate wire for the load.

In your specific case, you are allowed to tap the stove line provided:
1 - the splice is made in an enclosure.
2 - the splice is made with wire rated for the ampacity of the circuit breaker protecting it OR the tap is less than 10 feet in length and terminates in appropriate overcurrent protection(in general, there are actually several provisions for taps based on various circumstances, but the 10 foot tap rule is the most common situation)

Code is often overstated and overkill for many things, but one place I would not mess around is on overcurrent protection. Get too crazy with that and you've got a fire waiting to happen.


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Old 09-30-2010, 07:40 PM   #22
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Call me paranoid, but I would never run undersized wire without protection. As you've probably seen in my build thread, the 6 gauge main supply is protected by the 50A breaker in my main panel. The 10 gauge wires for my elements are protected by 30A breakers in the control box. 14 gauge is protected by 10A breakers in the control box.

We're talking about a lot of amperage, 240V circuits and liquids. Yes, it's a short run. Yes, I'm supervising it. But I still don't want the wires melting because they're not protected by an appropriately sized breaker. The breakers were $16 each for the 30A and $8 each for the 10A. So $48 is cheap insurance when amortized over the time I'll be using the rig.

Edit: the DIN rail was $6.50 for 2 meters worth.

For the record, codes never entered into my thinking. Just protecting wires from burning up in a worst case scenario.

-Joe


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Old 09-30-2010, 07:45 PM   #23
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+1

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Old 09-30-2010, 07:47 PM   #24
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I don't blame you one bit - I would probably build it the same way. Code does allow for undersized tap conductors in certain situations, however - not that it is recommended practice.

If I were doing it, I'd probably buy a little 60A 6 or 8 circuit load center, mount it to my brewery structure and fill it with 30A/2P and 15A/1P breakers, running all my wiring back to that point.
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Old 09-30-2010, 08:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinemasher View Post
As a licensed Professional Engineer who deals with code on a daily basis, I would not let that electrician anywhere near my house. Of course, I also would probably do 90% of all wiring in my house myself.

You are most certainly NOT allowed to do whatever your want as long as you run the appropriate wire for the load.

In your specific case, you are allowed to tap the stove line provided:
1 - the splice is made in an enclosure.
2 - the splice is made with wire rated for the ampacity of the circuit breaker protecting it OR the tap is less than 10 feet in length and terminates in appropriate overcurrent protection(in general, there are actually several provisions for taps based on various circumstances, but the 10 foot tap rule is the most common situation)

Code is often overstated and overkill for many things, but one place I would not mess around is on overcurrent protection. Get too crazy with that and you've got a fire waiting to happen.

Generally, I agree.

The NEC is basically a safety manual. It provides minimum requirements for a safe electrical system. You can always bump up your level of safety or choose to completely ignore it and hope for the best.

As far as wiring in your own house, you CAN do whatever you want. No one is gonna come look at it unless you pull a permit or they are coming to investigate a fire/insurance claim. But as a contractor myself, I would not give out that advice.

The term "code nazi" was brought up earlier. I assume this is directed at either the OP or myself as I belive we both mentioned it prior to that post. This is my take: My system is not "to code" in all respects but I am experienced, educated in and respectful of electrictiy. If you are not all of the above, follow the code at a bare minimum and you will be safe. Stating code to help others to build a safe system does not seem very nazi-like to me
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Old 09-30-2010, 08:06 PM   #26
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For those looking for high amperage fuses... I highly suggest panel mount fuse holders McMaster #7055K18 with midget fuses sized for the conductors you are using. The power feeding your panel should already be coming from a breaker rated for the power cord. At half the price it could be worth it for some... like me.
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Old 09-30-2010, 08:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinemasher View Post
As a licensed Professional Engineer who deals with code on a daily basis, I would not let that electrician anywhere near my house. Of course, I also would probably do 90% of all wiring in my house myself.

You are most certainly NOT allowed to do whatever your want as long as you run the appropriate wire for the load.

In your specific case, you are allowed to tap the stove line provided:
1 - the splice is made in an enclosure.
2 - the splice is made with wire rated for the ampacity of the circuit breaker protecting it OR the tap is less than 10 feet in length and terminates in appropriate overcurrent protection(in general, there are actually several provisions for taps based on various circumstances, but the 10 foot tap rule is the most common situation)

Code is often overstated and overkill for many things, but one place I would not mess around is on overcurrent protection. Get too crazy with that and you've got a fire waiting to happen.
I agree. Perhaps it was just him tell me this because we had already talked about the project and I mentioned the run I was doing with the conduit and junction box. So perhaps he was saying "I" can do what I want because I knew what I was doing.
I guess my reply came from frustration of seeing several threads (and now this one) drove into the ground with code discussion when they guy asked a simple question that had to do with electricity. All of a sudden everyone started quoting their NEC book.
I will trust this guy to do work in my house despite anyone else's opinion. If he didn't know what he was doing he would have ran a successful Electrical contractor business for the past 30+ years.

I'll take someone who knows application over someone who can quote a book and theory without knowing the real world reason why.

This is not a direct stab at anyone personally.
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Old 09-30-2010, 08:55 PM   #28
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Code are minimums of safety. Code are developed because somebody did something stupid and cost people lives. Nothing wrong with code.
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Old 09-30-2010, 09:14 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Code are minimums of safety. Code are developed because somebody did something stupid and cost people lives. Nothing wrong with code.
I agree. Its not like you have to listen to a bunch of guys and girls online telling you what the code is, but I have a hard time being angry at people trying to make a situation safer. Frankly, I have done a lot of crazy wiring stuff to make things work in my time, and some things I see here make even me cringe...

It is more expensive to build things the right way, but IMO it is really worth the extra trouble and expense. For an extra $150ish per one of these builds you can at least get some fuses and make sure you have a GFCI installed. (Yes, I know the GFCI may or may not be parts of the code, but in our instance it just seems like a good idea...).
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Old 10-01-2010, 12:00 AM   #30
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+1 on the sub-forum.

The reason you use a smaller fuse/breaker is to be able to use thinner wires, the smaller fuse/breaker will not provide any additional protection to your PID or other equipment.

If you want to protect your PID you're better of using surge protection.

With installing multiple fuses be careful that different parts of your setup can still be hot even do all your lights and PID's are off.


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