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09-18-2010, 12:11 AM   #61
JoeSponge
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Nov 2008
Belly of the beast, DC, Torment
Posts: 168
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JFTR,
I have been searching for the simplest automated / online tools that would let me calculate the "time-to-sterile" for hot water immersion. I can probably fake steady-state calculations, but that's not what we're looking for.

I did turn up useful information in my searches...
From my close, personal friend (Wikipedia):
"... There are two main types of pasteurization used today: High Temperature/Short Time (HTST) and "Extended Shelf Life (ESL)" treatment. ...
... is forced between metal plates or through pipes heated on the outside by hot water, and is heated to 71.7 °C (161 °F) for 15–20 seconds. ...

The HTST pasteurization standard was designed to achieve a 5-log reduction, killing 99.999% of the number of viable micro-organisms in [milk]. This is considered adequate for destroying almost all yeasts, mold, and common spoilage bacteria ...
"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization)

And, from my friend that I would like to be closer, and more personal (HBT):
"... looked through "Brewing, Science, and Practice" where I remembered reading about some pasteurization info.

Here's some quick info:
at 53C minimum time to kill population 56 min
at 60C minimum time to kill population 5.6 min
at 67c minimum time to kill population .56 min
..."
(http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/resu...1/#post1346616)

And, because I need to dink around more on my computer than sleep, I found a TON of great calculations that I can't do any more, and settled for a simple conversion (thank you, Excel...):

53C = 128F
60C = 140F
67C = 152F

[C is degrees Centigrade, not Calories.
F is degrees Farenheit, not Frankenstein.]

So, a water bath LONG enough at a CONSTANT temperature, will do it. Steady-state is easy: Add a pound of ice and a pound of boiling water, mix well, and you have 2 pounds at 50C. We just can't mix the hot water INSIDE the bottles, so we have to wait. Is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it don... sorry.

I'm still looking for the temperature -vs- time calcs (easy enough for me to do w/out relearning Biot's numbers, Fourier transforms, or how to use the charts from somebody who's name starts with an H... Whew. I need a cider again.

Failing that, you could do one of two things:
1) get the bottles swirling and turning, making the temperature more homogenous inside, approximating a solid with good heat conductivity, or
2) Put a thermometer into an open bottle and hope for the best.

I think I'm going to try the last one. Sweet(er) cider, here I come.
__________________
Oh my gosh, but cider's neat.
Taste's so sweet, it can't be beat.
Good in the cold or in the heat.
Oh my gosh, but cider's neat!

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09-18-2010, 03:12 PM   #62
Pappers_
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Jan 2009
Chicago
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by JoeSponge Failing that, you could do one of two things: 1) get the bottles swirling and turning, making the temperature more homogenous inside, approximating a solid with good heat conductivity
You have a thorough and science-focused approached, Joe. From experience, I know that 12 ounce beer bottles filled with cider are effectively pasteurized in 190 degree water if you let them sit in the hot water for ten minutes.

Also, I would be cautious abut the suggestion in the quote above. We're dealing with heating pressurized bottles and my approach is to touch and move them as little as possible. I am careful not to bump them, for example. After they cool, its fine, but common sense seems to me to advise caution in handling them when they are warm.

Good luck with your experiments and cider!

09-23-2010, 01:56 AM   #63
Pappers_
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Pasteurized another batch tonight. It had been one of those days, too much work, etc. I was reminded about how easy this really is - while I was pasteurizing the batch, I put away groceries, did dishes and made dinner. Got the cider and my chores finished!

This batch was a little drier - about 1.007. Very tasty, but noticeably drier.

09-23-2010, 02:04 AM   #64
naeco
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Jun 2010
Posts: 165

Does anyone know how long I would have to keep a champagne bottle in 190 water before it's pasteurized ?
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09-27-2010, 03:28 PM   #65
jamesjensen1068
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Jan 2010
Omaha, NE
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Pappers,

Thanks for this. I've been brewing since the first of this yr and although I've done Apfelwein and Graff, this is my first true cider. I wanted a sweet, sparkling cider...so finding your post on pasteurization couldn't of come at a better time.

Cheers

09-29-2010, 06:27 PM   #66
Lunarpancake

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Oct 2009
Monmouth County NJ
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May be a dumb question but if I am going to backsweeten my cider with 1 or 2 cans of some frozen 100% apple juice concetrate do I need to add priming sugar aswell?

09-30-2010, 12:26 AM   #67
Pappers_
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Lunarpancake May be a dumb question but if I am going to backsweeten my cider with 1 or 2 cans of some frozen 100% apple juice concetrate do I need to add priming sugar aswell?
Hi Lunar. No, you don't need to, the yeast will eat up the apple sugars, you would need to keep a close eye on carbonation, though - because the yeast will keep on eating the sugars until BOOM. You want to stop them well short of that.

09-30-2010, 12:57 AM   #68
Lunarpancake

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Monmouth County NJ
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thats what i thought....i just had a brain fart. Im going to check my bottles starting on the 5th day after bottling, then every 3 or 4 days afterward till they are perfect.

09-30-2010, 01:00 AM   #69
Pappers_
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Lunarpancake thats what i thought....i just had a brain fart. Im going to check my bottles starting on the 5th day after bottling, then every 3 or 4 days afterward till they are perfect.
Maybe every other day? Carbonation can go fast, sometimes. But you're not wasting them - pour it over ice and enjoy.

09-30-2010, 01:38 AM   #70
Lunarpancake

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Monmouth County NJ
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pappers Maybe every other day? Carbonation can go fast, sometimes. But you're not wasting them - pour it over ice and enjoy.
so check every other day after bottling?